A Well Regulated Militia Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» A Well Regulated Militia » Weaponry » Ammunition » Ammo 5.56/.223 Brands (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Ammo 5.56/.223 Brands
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello -

Are there specif brands of 5.56/.223 ammo that should be avoided? What ones are decent?

Any advice on Wolf brand?

I am needing to purchase some for practicing and some for use if necessary. I'm not able to afford the Rolls Royce brands so what would you suggest?

Thanks!

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christopher
Member
Member # 4030

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steel ammo will wear out your extractor faster than brass ammo will. Wolf and Brown Bear are much dirtier than brass ammo. Wolf also has a reputation for being somewhat underpowered. My buddy has a DPMS and says that wolf will fail to cycle his bolt every 6 or 7 rounds, I just put 300 rounds of wolf/brown bear through my DPMS today and didn't have a single hiccup.

get what you can afford. If it doesn't work great then you get to practice lots of malfunction drills, and you get used to cleaning your rifle regularly.

Posts: 86 | From: Salisbury, Maryland | Registered: Dec 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well - I have been finding a lot of WOLD & PMC.

I have 5 boxes of PMC I bought when I got the AR. Here is what I got:

PMC Bronze Line Rifle Ammunition 223A, 223 Remington, Full Metal Jacket Boat-Tail, 55 GR, 3200 fps, 1000 Round Case / 50 boxes

It says it is good for target practicing. From what I've read it isn't the best for 'use' outside of practice.

I don't mind getting something like this for practice, but what brands should be used for 'use'? If all else fails I can use the PMC I guess.

I have NO reloading supplies at all and before I look at getting any I want at least 2K to 3K rounds for 'use' in storage.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Christopher
Member
Member # 4030

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I also have a stash of PMC, but I haven't shot any of it yet.

M855 and M193 are usually considered to be the "comabt loads". I believe (but am not 100%) that M193 is the current regular load for the military. There are a number of manufaturers who make ammo to that spec with that name. The military's is made by Lake City.

Posts: 86 | From: Salisbury, Maryland | Registered: Dec 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank Christopher. I'll start searching for the Ammo under those numbers.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks to Klinton, the .gov no longer sells M193 and M855 et. al. to the public, so if you get the real deal, it comes to you via an interesting route. Something to keep in mind.

FWIW, I put 5.56mm in 3 categories

(A) real close to the real thing - which in my view would be Prvi Partizan M193 and M855, Federal XM193BK and PD855, and the WCC white box M855 and Q3131, IMI, Igman

(B) meets .223 spec, but not close to M193 or M855 (usually for reasons of velocity - about 200 fps slower than the real deal) - Federal AE, brown box, Centurion M193, PMC, various tactical loads

(C) the situation is desperate and I'll shoot anything I can get - not even close to US mil-spec. This is Wolf, S&B, most reloads. Usually primers not crimped and sealed, bullets not sealed at the neck, muzzle velocity, case dimension, etc.

Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Awesome!

Thanks Pericles.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
YankeeSpirit76
Member
Member # 4043

Icon 1 posted      Profile for YankeeSpirit76   Author's Homepage   Email YankeeSpirit76   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You can get SS109, which is the newest stuff the military uses now, (62 grain green tip 5.56) at Cheaper than dirt. They seem to have a constant supply of Lake City but the price just jumped $5 a box! It was going for 14.95/20rds. just a month or so ago. Now it's 19.95/20 rds.
I know it's expensive, but I'd rather have a few hundred rounds of the best stuff than a few thousand rounds of crap. JMHO

Posts: 21 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: Jan 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YankeeSpirit76:
You can get SS109, which is the newest stuff the military uses now, (62 grain green tip 5.56) at Cheaper than dirt. They seem to have a constant supply of Lake City but the price just jumped $5 a box! It was going for 14.95/20rds. just a month or so ago. Now it's 19.95/20 rds.
I know it's expensive, but I'd rather have a few hundred rounds of the best stuff than a few thousand rounds of crap. JMHO

I think you will find that SS109 is the NATO standard 5.56 round, which is a couple hundred fps slower than M855. During the great ammo shortage of 2005, when the .gov bought NATO SS109 for the sandbox, they found that it did not always work in the M4s because of the slower velocity. M855 exceeds NATO spec for velocity, and a memo was put out to only fire M855 out of the M4s. SS109 will work fine in the A2s and A4s as they have 20 inch barrels and get enough velocity.
Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
indianaprepared
Member
Member # 4189

Icon 1 posted      Profile for indianaprepared   Email indianaprepared   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
forget the mil rounds. the 5.56 .223 is much more effective with hunting rounds. unless you have a 1-14 twist for your 55 grain fmj or a 1-12 for the 62 grain penatrators
Posts: 32 | From: northern indiana | Registered: May 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Rudy
Moderator NCO Contributor
Member # 1967

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Rudy   Author's Homepage   Email Rudy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The older M193 is generally considered to be more lethal to unarmored targets due to bullet design. A bullet is stabile in flight; however that stability is disrupted when a bullet strikes a solid object. Bullets will then revert to traveling with the heavy base end first. After striking a soft medium (living tissue) the bullet starts to yaw or travel sideways as it turns base first in flight. As the m193 bullet reaches a position near the perpendicular, enormous amounts of stress are placed on the jacket of the bullet. The jacket ruptures at the cannilure splitting the bullet into 2 main projectiles, and several smaller projectiles. Each of the fragments will now have a separate would channel increasing the damaged tissue geometrically.

The M855/SS109 follows the same flight patterns until it starts to yaw. Remember that this round was required to penetrate an M1 helmet at 600 yards. It gave up ‘terminal’ ballistics for increased penetration. To obtain this increased penetration, it has a steel cylinder buried inside the lead core. This penetrator starts in front of the cannilure and extends back just about to the tail end of the bullet. When this bullet suffers the stress of the tumbling, the penetrator actually holds the bullet together. This results in the bullet remaining intact and usually exiting the target.

I would use the M855 only as a last resort, except for possibly questionable reloads.

--------------------
Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."

Posts: 2113 | From: 43BN-37FF | Registered: Feb 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
indianaprepared
Member
Member # 4189

Icon 1 posted      Profile for indianaprepared   Email indianaprepared   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
exactly right, this is the reason the m16 was thought to be such a devastating weapon when it was first introduced with 55 gr fmj and 1 in 14 twist barrels. when the rate was changed to 1 in 12 leathality was decreased 40%. now we are at 1 in 9 or 1 in 7 which over stabilizes the projectile. hence the reason for friends of mine now using black hills 77 gr sierra BTHP. very effective if one insist on non-expanding bullets. (geneva convention)
Posts: 32 | From: northern indiana | Registered: May 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Minion
Member
Member # 4356

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Minion   Email Minion   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I discovered some inexpensive ammo called PPU. I think it's of Czech manufacture. It's brass case 55gr FMJ and it shoots real clean from my Rock River Arms AR. I shot 1.5" group or slightly less at 100+yd. I like to carry DRT but the PPU actually shoots better for only $9 a box. I would say it's the perfect practice/target ammo and I would even consider it for my carry ammo if DRT wasn't so awesome.

--------------------
Daniel J Neumann

Posts: 5 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
PPU is the Prvi, and I consider it to be the best deal on the market today. I look for it as first priority.
Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Imagrunt
Moderator

Member # 563

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Imagrunt   Author's Homepage   Email Imagrunt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pericles:
PPU is the Prvi, and I consider it to be the best deal on the market today. I look for it as first priority.

Ditto!


Privi Partisan is top notch ammo!


 -

--------------------
I would gladly lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my battle rifle, and thank God that He has put it within my grasp.

Audit Fort Knox!

Posts: 3469 | From: Philistine Occupied CA | Registered: Feb 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
kuhn
Member
Member # 4435

Icon 1 posted      Profile for kuhn   Author's Homepage   Email kuhn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pericles:
Thanks to Klinton, the .gov no longer sells M193 and M855 et. al. to the public, so if you get the real deal, it comes to you via an interesting route. Something to keep in mind.

FWIW, I put 5.56mm in 3 categories

(A) real close to the real thing - which in my view would be Prvi Partizan M193 and M855, Federal XM193BK and PD855, and the WCC white box M855 and Q3131, IMI, Igman

(B) meets .223 spec, but not close to M193 or M855 (usually for reasons of velocity - about 200 fps slower than the real deal) - Federal AE, brown box, Centurion M193, PMC, various tactical loads

(C) the situation is desperate and I'll shoot anything I can get - not even close to US mil-spec. This is Wolf, S&B, most reloads. Usually primers not crimped and sealed, bullets not sealed at the neck, muzzle velocity, case dimension, etc.

in your 3rd catigory you have S&B would that include the S&B 5.56 62gr green tipped SS109 that is sold in the greens boxes or are you talking about the commercial .223 stuff?
Thanks in advance for your reply

[ 09-02-2009, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: kuhn ]

--------------------
kuhn

Posts: 23 | From: arklatex | Registered: Sep 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would place the green tip S&B SS109 in the (B) category. Reason is that it is NATO spec (probably the supplier for their Army), but not M855 spec. That is important to you based on the barrel length of your weapon. It would work fine in a 20", and may not be reliable in the short barrel ARs.

S&B gets mixed reviews, which leads me to suspect the weapon configuration plays a role.

Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
kuhn
Member
Member # 4435

Icon 1 posted      Profile for kuhn   Author's Homepage   Email kuhn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I get very good accuracey from it in my RFA2-16
it should be better accuracey as i improve on my marksmanship. i guess if you can't hit the board side of a barn with a howitzer it doesn't matter what you shoulder. i have some federal XM193 i have to try in it as well,i think it's lake city stuff but i'm not sure.

--------------------
kuhn

Posts: 23 | From: arklatex | Registered: Sep 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
stanprophet
Senior Member
Member # 4084

Icon 1 posted      Profile for stanprophet   Author's Homepage   Email stanprophet   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Imagrunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Pericles:
PPU is the Prvi, and I consider it to be the best deal on the market today. I look for it as first priority.

Ditto!


Privi Partisan is top notch ammo!


 -

I Third that,
You can find Lake City XM193 and M855 sold in cases and some boxes under the federal CC name. The head stamp will say LC 09 or whatever year it is made. The PPU is just as good in my experience. The PPU is a nato contract supplier for ammo, and was bidding for a contract with DOD and lost the ammo contract by a flier that was 10FPS below specs. It is all I shoot anymore, it is much cheaper and works fine. Their version of the M855 is suppose to be loaded to US specs, I have had several reports that it crono's out to that spec also.

Posts: 177 | From: Tidewater, Virginia | Registered: Apr 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A look at Lake City headstamps:

 -

On the left is M193 real deal from my war reserve - look at spacing on the letters and numbers.

In the middle is LC M855 - you see the NATO clover leaf as a NATO standard round of ammunition.

On the right is Federal XM193 - look at the difference in the letter and number spacing from the USGI manufacture.

--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson

www.dallascitytroop.org

Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have been given some rounds that are stamped 'M193 0 8'.

Any idea who might stamp the bullets this way?

I was given a bag of them - no box - so I have no idea who makes them.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Correus,

I found some range brass with that same stamping. I just looked it up and people are saying its Centurion brand ammo.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by OLM-Medic:
I found some range brass with that same stamping. I just looked it up and people are saying its Centurion brand ammo.

Thanks!

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Kimber_45
Senior Member
Member # 4076

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kimber_45   Email Kimber_45   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
Steel ammo will wear out your extractor faster than brass ammo will. Wolf and Brown Bear are much dirtier than brass ammo. Wolf also has a reputation for being somewhat underpowered. My buddy has a DPMS and says that wolf will fail to cycle his bolt every 6 or 7 rounds, I just put 300 rounds of wolf/brown bear through my DPMS today and didn't have a single hiccup.

get what you can afford. If it doesn't work great then you get to practice lots of malfunction drills, and you get used to cleaning your rifle regularly.

Gotta call BS on wolf wearing out extractors. My M4's have shot thousands of rounds or wolf and i have a few thousand more waiting to be shot and my extractors have been fine. All my friends have shot thousands of rounds of wolf too. Even if they wear out faster which they wont, I'll save enough money to buy more extractors. You do have extra extractors dont you? Everyone needs to have several of every critical part.
Posts: 154 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Apr 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
After the first shot of steel cased .223, the extractor is payed for in savings.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Pericles
Senior Member
Member # 4003

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pericles   Author's Homepage   Email Pericles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steel case (Wolf) is fine for training, but underpowered. For real, this means it may not fragment as desired at longer range and in a dirty weapon, you may start to get some FTF. Wouldn't put it in my "war reserve".

--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson

www.dallascitytroop.org

Posts: 951 | From: TX - DAL | Registered: Sep 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, I forgot to mention that Pericles. I would NEVER use any type of steel case ammo for real life use...NEVER

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Kimber_45
Senior Member
Member # 4076

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Kimber_45   Email Kimber_45   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have M193 for the real stuff, but I practice and shoot matches with wolf.
Posts: 154 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Apr 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
coydog
Senior Member
Member # 631

Icon 1 posted      Profile for coydog   Email coydog   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a 1:8 twist so I started reloading using various brands at 68 to 75gr for my AR. Before that I was pleased with BVAC loads

--------------------
"State a moral case to a ploughman & a professor. The former will decide it as well, & often better than the latter,
because he has not been led astray by artificial rules."

Posts: 798 | From: A 105-11FF Somewhere in the Catskills | Registered: Mar 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
RugerNiner
Senior Member
Member # 1221

Icon 1 posted      Profile for RugerNiner   Email RugerNiner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by indianaprepared:
. hence the reason for friends of mine now using black hills 77 gr sierra BTHP. very effective if one insist on non-expanding bullets. (geneva convention)

Actually that would have been the First Hague Convention of 1899, which I don't think the United States ever signed but abides to.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

--------------------
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!

Posts: 294 | From: Lancaster, PA | Registered: Nov 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, but who really cares. It's a stupid idea that you can't use expanding bullets to kill faster, but its okay to use FMJ to let them bleed out slower. the whole concept is just dumb.

Technically we could be using them on "terrorists" because they aren't actual countries. We could even use them on countries who didn't sign the convention...

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
coydog
Senior Member
Member # 631

Icon 1 posted      Profile for coydog   Email coydog   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by OLM-Medic:
Yeah, but who really cares. It's a stupid idea that you can't use expanding bullets to kill faster, but its okay to use FMJ to let them bleed out slower. the whole concept is just dumb.

Technically we could be using them on "terrorists" because they aren't actual countries. We could even use them on countries who didn't sign the convention...

Well said OLM

I have had good results with the 65gr SBT GameKing's. A nice wound channel and they drop a whitetail PDQ

--------------------
"State a moral case to a ploughman & a professor. The former will decide it as well, & often better than the latter,
because he has not been led astray by artificial rules."

Posts: 798 | From: A 105-11FF Somewhere in the Catskills | Registered: Mar 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Honestly, I'm sticking with the FMJ. I feel like if I use expanding bullets that it will inhibit the fragmenting abilities since it will keep the mass moving forwards.

OTOH, I do have some 75gr TAP that I just noticed was JHP. Not sure how I feel about that. Overanalyzing...

I was surprised the other day when I compared Federal AE XM193 to Winchester (the made in israel kind). Winchester blew it away. I had some not so impressive groups with the other 5.56 but the Winchester made every hole in the target touching. I just wish it wasn't so expensive!

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
Moderator

Member # 155

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tire iron   Email tire iron   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OLM,

TAP ammo is not JHP - it is Open Tip Match (OTM). Big difference.

When constructing a JHP round - the jacket recieves some engineering (scoring) to aid in the expansion.

Whereas with the OTM round - the "hollow point" is a consiquence of the manufacturing process to create match grade ammo. It doesn't aid in expansion and acts like a ball round.

It doesn't not act like JHP.

It acts like M193 on steroids.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
http://utahguntraining.com
Utah Gun Training

Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TI,

thats what I always thought but it said "JHP" on it. It could just be an error on the websites though.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/909.php

I don't have the box with me to look at.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
Moderator

Member # 155

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tire iron   Email tire iron   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm....the website does say that.....oh well, they don't know what the difference is apparently - however Hornady TAP is OTM - not JHP.

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
http://utahguntraining.com
Utah Gun Training

Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah the box doesn't mention what type of bullet, neither does Hornady's website. They must have just messed up the title on the site.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Vader
Senior Member
Member # 168

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lord Vader   Email Lord Vader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sometimes no one is wrong and every one is right.


Actually an OTM bullet is a JHP bullet, the only difference is that an OTM is not designed or intended to expand.

So calling an OTM match bullet JHP is technically correct,but calling a JHP bullet an OTM is not correct unless it is a Match Bullet.

Federal uses the Sierra MatchKing BTHP, so Sierra calls it Boat Tail Hollow Point and just leaves out the Jacketed part.

--------------------
VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I shot some 75gr TAP today and it was mediocre. The Winchester XM193 I shot had way better groups.

I suspect either it was from my 1:9 twist, or me not cleaning the barrel after a lot of .22lr conversion use. Either way it did okay for combat accuracy. All rounds on the paper at 200 yards. Just nothing better than my other 5.56.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
Moderator

Member # 155

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tire iron   Email tire iron   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well crud - I would wager it is your 1x9" twist barrel.

With my 1x7" twist I get just over 1" five shot groups at 200 yards with my Colt 6920 upper - it is a VERY accurate load (with the right twist barrel).

Try some 69 grain ammo. It has been known to be a tack driver in 1x9" barrels.

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
http://utahguntraining.com
Utah Gun Training

Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tire iron:
...I get just over 1" five shot groups at 200 yards...

Dang!

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
Moderator

Member # 155

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tire iron   Email tire iron   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a couple of other 1x7" barreled AR uppers that shoot in the 2"~3" sized 5 shot groups at 200 with the 75 or 77 grain ammo - which is typical of what one can expect from a combat grade 16" barrel.

My Colt 6920 just happens to be one of those barrels that is just a real shooter. Not all Colt 6920 barrels are like that.

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
http://utahguntraining.com
Utah Gun Training

Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuscarora
Senior Member
Member # 4831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tuscarora   Email Tuscarora   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tire iron:
Well crud - I would wager it is your 1x9" twist barrel.

With my 1x7" twist I get just over 1" five shot groups at 200 yards with my Colt 6920 upper - it is a VERY accurate load (with the right twist barrel).

Try some 69 grain ammo. It has been known to be a tack driver in 1x9" barrels.

cheers

tire iron

Spot on. The 62 to 69 grain rounds are perfect for 1x9 barrels. I use a 1x9 barrel myself and I can get under 2 inch groups at 200' from the prone.

I use the 1x9 because it seems just better suited for military loads than the 1x7 barrel that is the service standard now. 1x7 will shoot military loads reasonably accurate, I've just found the 1x9 to be slightly better.

--------------------
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London

Posts: 270 | From: Southern Tier - NY state | Registered: Feb 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuscarora
Senior Member
Member # 4831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tuscarora   Email Tuscarora   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by OLM-Medic:
Yeah, but who really cares. It's a stupid idea that you can't use expanding bullets to kill faster, but its okay to use FMJ to let them bleed out slower. the whole concept is just dumb.

I agree but the reason that they outlawed it was the same reason they outlawed the tri-corner bayonet.

The tricorner bayonet was designed so that if the wounded SURVIVED the wound would be very difficult to sew shut, while a regular blade would leave an incision type puncture wound that would be much easier to patch up.

They saw expanding or fragmenting ammo the same way, not making a clean easy healing wound but making a lacerating mess out of the flesh. The concern here was not about the manner of a kill, but the suffering of the wounded.

Typically I think it's stupid to limit yourself in war based on rules agreed upon between you and your enemies but is important to understand their thought process.

Morality is where I limit myself.

--------------------
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London

Posts: 270 | From: Southern Tier - NY state | Registered: Feb 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
Correus
Senior Member
Member # 3955

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Correus   Email Correus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
They saw expanding or fragmenting ammo the same way, not making a clean easy healing wound but making a lacerating mess out of the flesh. The concern here was not about the manner of a kill, but the suffering of the wounded.
If you want to see the effects look here:

Your One Survival Gun

Warning - it is graphic.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

Posts: 372 | From: South-central Kansas | Registered: May 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuscarora
Senior Member
Member # 4831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tuscarora   Email Tuscarora   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Those are all bone hits, the reality of 5.56 is not reflected in those photos. I do agree that 7.62 has more kill power but for me the 5.56 is good enough, and it is much more common.

--------------------
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London

Posts: 270 | From: Southern Tier - NY state | Registered: Feb 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tuscarora:
Those are all bone hits, the reality of 5.56 is not reflected in those photos. I do agree that 7.62 has more kill power but for me the 5.56 is good enough, and it is much more common.

Actually, according to the story, the round never directly hit the bone.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by tire iron:
Well crud - I would wager it is your 1x9" twist barrel.

With my 1x7" twist I get just over 1" five shot groups at 200 yards with my Colt 6920 upper - it is a VERY accurate load (with the right twist barrel).

Try some 69 grain ammo. It has been known to be a tack driver in 1x9" barrels.

cheers

tire iron

Yeah, at least I know it will hit with decent accuracy. I will try 69 gr ammo and see how that works. The barrel was VERY dirty, but I don't think thats why.

At least now I know I can hit what I'm aiming at every time at 200 yards, regardless of ammo.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Tuscarora
Senior Member
Member # 4831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tuscarora   Email Tuscarora   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Actually, according to the story, the round never directly hit the bone. [/QB]
That's a joke right?

One, where does it say that and two, did you look at the x-rays? Both injuries are bone hits without question. A 55 gr round did not cause that type of injury without hitting the bone.

Sorry "medic" but femurs and tibias don't suffer that kind of failure because a bullet went near it.

--------------------
"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London

Posts: 270 | From: Southern Tier - NY state | Registered: Feb 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
OLM-Medic
Senior Member
Member # 4341

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OLM-Medic   Email OLM-Medic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, it can happen. I'm not saying it did, I'm no physician. It is possible for a temporary stretch cavity to cause a fracture though, and that is what was said.

--------------------
"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

Posts: 731 | From: Maryland | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | A Well Regulated Militia

All information posted on this site is the private property
of the individual who posted the information and AWRM.org,
and may not be reproduced anywhere without permission.
© 2001-2017 AWRM.org All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2