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Author Topic: Ammo 5.56/.223 Brands
Correus
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quote:
That's a joke right?

Sorry "medic" but femurs and tibias don't suffer that kind of failure because a bullet went near it.

Talked to my brother about this. He is a PA who specializes in Trauma and is an avid shooter.

A wound such as this can cause bone to break - it's called Hydrostatic shock.

Ballistic pressure waves can break bones.
quote:
Ming L, Yu-Yuan M, Ring-Xiang F, Tian-Shun F: The characteristics of pressure waves generated in the soft target by impact and its contribution to indirect bone fractures. The Journal of Trauma 28(1) Supplement: S104-S109; 1988.
Also take a look here:

FRACTURES IN ADULTS

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Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

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Tuscarora
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It isn't just a fracture, there are whole pices of bone completely missing, there is a complete compounded BREAK.

It doesn't take a doctor to realise that the amount of bone left in the x-rays is not enough matter to make up the bone. If a single shot with a 55 gr round was the only injury incurred it was a direct impact, most likely at intermediate to short range to have the amout of velocity needed to cause that damage. It was a bone hit people, you are REALLY stretching here.

If you want to believe that these are typical wounds caused by 5.56 mm rounds be my guest. I have seen HUNDREDS of wounds to human beings caused by 5.56 of various grain sizes and bullet types. With all manner of hit types, ricochet, multiple proximity, post penetration, extreme angle, you name it.

I myself carried both hollowpoints, AP, tracer, and the typical M855's and M193's as a DM in Iraq.

As a member of the unorganized militia I still prefer the 5.56 as an MBR round.

But lets not lie to ourselves about the effectiveness of this family of rounds. Those two examples of injury caused by 5.56 rounds are the EXTREME exception, and were only so severe because it was a direct hit on the bone.

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"The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time." -Jack London

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tire iron
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuscarora:

Those two examples of injury caused by 5.56 rounds are the EXTREME exception.

Truth.

The 5.56 can create devastatingly horrific wounds - and it can create nothing but small puncture wounds too.

Never trust ANY round/ammo combination to work. Train that they will NOT work and plan accordingly. Then when they do work you will be pleasantly surprised.


cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
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Correus
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quote:
Train that they will NOT work and plan accordingly.
Wise words.

I'll share this when I go to the range with the rest of my group.

--------------------
Larry

A Co 191st Bn 34th FF
Kansas Long Rifles


Hooah!!

“An armed society is a polite society” ~ Robert A. Heinlein

"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." ~ Thomas Paine

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5.56
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Folks,

This topic of 5.56 being good or bad with different types of ammunition.

Folks, I have seen this in person for accuracy on the top end of the spectrum. At 1,000 yards, with iron sights, target sights but no optics at all, one of our members shooting a 12 3/8" 5 shot group with his AR15 rifle. That is the exception rather than the rule but it can be done with the proper shooter and ammunition.

The ammunition is a main key for performance. As an example: Currently we are under development of 2 5.56mm rds. One is a 50gr and the other is a 60gr.

The ballistic gelitan test on the 50gr are as follows. A total of 8" penetration, the bullet fractured as designed and the total spread between fragments at 8" penetration was 6".

It will depend on shot placement and bullet type to determine what results you get. I have seen small game shot with FMJ with a simple clean through and through hole and have seen the same small game basically torn to pieces with a hornady V-max bullet. You can expect the same results with larger targets as in how the bullet performs, it either will expand or not, it will not tear a large game critter to pieces but it will perform if it is an expanding bullet. Small game will not get you tossed into the clink testing the rds. though which is a plus!

My best suggestion is to find out what your rifle likes to eat for the best accuracy and stick with it. The most devastating rds. that you can find do not add up to a hill of beans if your rifle does not like the load and you cannot hit with it with consistant accuracy.

5.56

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Imagrunt
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quote:
Originally posted by tire iron:
Well crud - I would wager it is your 1x9" twist barrel.

With my 1x7" twist I get just over 1" five shot groups at 200 yards with my Colt 6920 upper - it is a VERY accurate load (with the right twist barrel).

Try some 69 grain ammo. It has been known to be a tack driver in 1x9" barrels.

cheers

tire iron

I recently discovered, after wasting a couple boxes of 75 grain ammo, that one of my barrels was a 1x9, so I will be ordering some 69 grain Privi Partizan.

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I would gladly lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my battle rifle, and thank God that He has put it within my grasp.

Audit Fort Knox!

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OLM-Medic
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Imagrunt,

how were your groups? Mine weren't bad even up to 200 yards, just not any better than regular XM193...and this was hornady.

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"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

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mirrorrorrim
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
I also have a stash of PMC, but I haven't shot any of it yet.

M855 and M193 are usually considered to be the "comabt loads". I believe (but am not 100%) that M193 is the current regular load for the military. There are a number of manufaturers who make ammo to that spec with that name. The military's is made by Lake City.

Shoot the PMC for practice, don't bet your life on it. Have had multiple failure to fire on multiple rifles. It's actually good practice ammo because it screws up so much.

mirror

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Missouri Militia - State Defense, Community Service

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Imagrunt
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quote:
Originally posted by OLM-Medic:
Imagrunt,

how were your groups? Mine weren't bad even up to 200 yards, just not any better than regular XM193...and this was hornady.

75 grain Privi Partizan

100 yards

Sub-MOA w/ the 1x7 barrel

2" w/ the 1x9 barrel

I'll let you know how the 69 gr ammo works out in the 1x9!

--------------------
I would gladly lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my battle rifle, and thank God that He has put it within my grasp.

Audit Fort Knox!

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feminizedwesternmale
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M855: Target Sports for Federal Lake City 5.56mm M855 62 Gr. $369.95/1000 (green tip) - Free shipping for the case; cheapest I've ever seen for this round, FYI. And no, I don't work for them, but get updates on cheapy Federal Ammo emailed to me weekly, and thought others perusing this thread may be interested.

It is also almost this cheap at Lucky Gunner, but I don't know if they include the shipping. Lucky Gunner

Three sites I check for prices per day:

http://ammoseek.com/
http://www.ammoengine.com/
http://gun-deals.com/

"aim small, miss small"

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"A state that does not control its borders or military forces and has no revenue, simply cannot exist."
-------------
Yegor Gaidar, director of the Institute for Economies in Transition in Moscow; acting prime minister of Russia, 1991-1994.

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OLM-Medic
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Palmettostatearmory.com seems to have the best 5.56 prices around. $299 +12 shipping for 1,000 rounds of XM193. I think XM855 is only slightly more expensive....

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"Remember that your adversary's desire to live is usually more powerful than whatever ammunition your are carrying in your firearms. Plan accordingly." -tire iron

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feminizedwesternmale
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Palmetto State has great prices, but I've had to wait for delivery and I live in SC, so I pay the state sales tax. Similar in offerings is:

http://georgia-arms.com/

--------------------
"A state that does not control its borders or military forces and has no revenue, simply cannot exist."
-------------
Yegor Gaidar, director of the Institute for Economies in Transition in Moscow; acting prime minister of Russia, 1991-1994.

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sinistral
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I just read the other day that Black Hills has begun selling its 77 grain 5.56 on the civilian market. Check it out here.

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“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace”
-Thomas Paine

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Lord Vader
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quote:
Originally posted by bulletboy2311:
I just read the other day that Black Hills has begun selling its 77 grain 5.56 on the civilian market. Check it out here.

Sorry friend Dead link, page not available.

Good link ammo available at bottom of page.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/page/3/cName/223-556-match-ammo/sort/2a

Ammo pricey but if it works as good as it is supposed to it will be worth it.

One shot one kill. Just not good for spray and pray too darn expensive for that use which no Freedom Fighter should be using anyway.

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

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Rudy
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Check out Cabela's online ammo sales. They have had the 75 grain ammo for over 3 years now. I'll go back and check out the brand and the price I paid last month. I think it was under $15 a box and loaded with Hornady A-Max 75 grain pills.

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Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."

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BuckeyeNCO
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Federal American Eagle 55 grain ball - Good all around round, and it's $6 a box. My carbine eats it up.
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Folcwine01
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Now I got's another question: M855 sucks, how does the Mk 318 Mod. 0 fair..?

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Folcwine

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Rudy
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I have not read any reports yet from 'stan on it's performance.

From what I've read though, it is supposed to be quite the 'magic' bullet. The front half disintergrates upon contact with soft targets, while the back half penetrates barriers

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Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."

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Archangel1
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I have a similar question. Has anyone tried the Mk 318 MOD-O(SOST) round in a 1x9 16" barrel? Design is interesting and reviews suggested good accuracy but it's double the price of 193 and 855.

I was thinking about picking up a box of the Cheaperthandirt brown box ammo and some 69 grain match to see how they all compare.

--------------------
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always Bad Men." Lord Actin 1887

I fear we live in evil times...

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HARBINGER
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In 2010 Federal's white box was rejects. It's designed for a 14.5" barrel. For accuracy I'd buy Black Hills mk262.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. - Psalm, CXLIV

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Folcwine01
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Talked to a my bro who was in the USMC about this ammo. He was a Combat Arms trainer for two years after having two tours in Iraq and the middle east.

He said he didn't have experience with it, but his opinion of the round is from its cross section is more for an improved version of the 55gr M193, not as a replacement to the M855 which is no longer used with steel core penetrators but improved with tungsten core penetrators.

The idea from what he said, and I have read, is this is a short to moderate range, improved penetration round that is likely to offer more energy transfer to the target. Beyond that he stated that the M193 more than adequate compared to the Mk 318, as neither is designed to penetrate armor, with the caveat that this likely will punch through obstacles like car doors and windows, as well as structures due to the weight being increased. Brush, in his opinion isn't nearly the concern that the others present. Additionally, the M193 is still used for the longer side of shooting. (And need I say the lower price...).

From other sources, the 1:9 is ok for stabilizing this round, with 1:7 being superior. It is designed for shorter barrels, achieving 2945 from 14 inch barrels. I would assume that you could get 3000+ from a 16.

Anyhow, that's about what I have learned thus far.

Additional Information:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60877
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/511790_MK318_Mod_0___Range_Reports.html (same report as above, different forum)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO (Denotes: MK318 MOD 0 enhanced 5.56 mm ammunition (United States): 5.56×45mm 62-grain Open-Tipped Match Boat-Tail cartridge)
http://usarmorment.com/federal-mk318-mod0-556-62-grain-sost-500-case-in-stock-p-1701.html (A supplier, cost .7919/round [not including shipping], denotes: Intermediate barriers; auto glass/doors.)
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/federal-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0.html (Another suppliers, .7315/round [not including shipping].)

[ 04-01-2012, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Folcwine01 ]

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Folcwine

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Archangel1
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Will the 77 grain Black Hills mk262 work well in a 1x9 16" barrel?

I found Black Hills Mk 318 MOD O for $.50 a round or so.

--------------------
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always Bad Men." Lord Actin 1887

I fear we live in evil times...

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HARBINGER
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quote:
Originally posted by Archangel1:
Will the 77 grain Black Hills mk262 work well in a 1x9 16" barrel?

I found Black Hills Mk 318 MOD O for $.50 a round or so.

Is go with a Hornaday 60- 68 grain. Think like this for higher twist rates go with lower weight projectiles. That's for accuracy not penetration. Honestly I've seen some rifles that were tack drivers no matter the weight of the round. And the rifle's twin a finiky bastard.

Just my opinion someone else may be of more help on this. I suggest trying different loads to see what your's likes.

--------------------
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. - Psalm, CXLIV

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BuckeyeNCO
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I use a 1/7 14.7" barrel w perm birdcage with 55gr Federal black box. At the moment, I don't shoot much further than 80-100yd, so I really haven't been able to fully appreciate the ranged capabilities of my rifle. I've been looking at joining a local rifle club with a 200yd range, but my question is this: My primary practice ammo is the aforementioned Federal black box, but I've heard that the groups with a 1/7 using 55 really start to open up after 100-120yds. Is the twist rate too fast? Should I be looking at heavier rounds like Hornady or BVAC 75's?

Buckeye

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Texas Resistance
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Having a 55 grain bullet over stabilized with a 1 in 7 twist will not hurt accuracy at all. Just don't use a 40 grain expanding varmint bullet with that fast a twist rate since they say it could self-destruct in flight.

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www.TexasMilitia.Info “Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter” William Cooper

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BuckeyeNCO
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Cool. Good to know.
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Archangel1
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I will play around with a few different rounds to see how my rifle likes each.

--------------------
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always Bad Men." Lord Actin 1887

I fear we live in evil times...

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Rudy
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Over stabilizing a bullet has a detrimental effect on the terminal ballistics.

The original M16 had a 1-14” twist; .it showed explosive effects on the human body due to its tumbling and breaking into multiple pieces after striking flesh. When McNamara changed the barrel twist to 1-12” it tended to over penetrate before becoming destabilized. That was with the M-193 55 grain bullet.

History repeats itself: The army placed more emphasis on penetration than lethality. The army required a bullet that could penetrate an M1 steel helmet at 500 yards. This necessitated a 1-7” twist to improve the penetration of the new M-855/SS109 round. The bullet now weighs 62 grains. Due to a steel penetrator in the bullet, it needs to be longer than usual. Steel weighs less than lead.

The 55 grain bullet has the reputation of splitting into multiple projectiles at the cannelure. The new 62 grain bullet has that steel penetrator just under the cannelure. This prevents the bullet from breaking apart. Now the bullet must rely solely on the tumbling to increase the temporary wound channel. Gone are the days of the bullet breaking into multiple pieces and causing several would channels.

The 62 grain bullet is my last choice for use in defense of my family. I can’t even use it my clubs target range because we have steel silhouette targets.

Here are a couple of posts from another site that explains it fairly well

[URL=http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2101572 ]Click here[/URL] (Post #4)

While you should always study a variety of sources, here are some diagrams at:
Diagrams And here is the text from:

Text

Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges

Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.

When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore’s rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).

The Earth’s gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.

The bullet’s pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet’s stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.

As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.

At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radically outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.

(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980’s. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)

At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.

At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.

Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.

Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.

The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.

The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.

Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.
End of quoted text.

Things to keep in mind are (IMO):

Bullet construction matters Velocity is critical. . Not all Full Metal Jacketed bullets are the same. The cannelured NATO bullets (M193 and M855) and similarly constructed, are the ones that break. Wolf has a bi-metal jacketed bullet. The new brass-cased Monarch FMJ does not appear to have a cannelure.

Velocity is critical. Once either the M193 or the M855 bullet drops below that 2700 something speed both bullets pretty much just act like any other full metal jacketed bullet. Because of this barrel length plays a big part in distance over which you can expect the more nasty effect. To another degree, bullet weight will have some affect in as much as it affects velocity loss over a given range.

There are always other factors and other factions to examine. People do have different opinions (some based on actual research) and more importantly, different experiences with the same situations.

Everything in this game is going to be a compromise. You can't have a round that pops bad guys behind walls and have the same round magically decide to not penetrate walls when good guys or innocents are on the other side. You can't have a shorty barrel and expect to get the above mentioned wound ballistics over the same range that you will with a 24" barreled rifle. Barrel length affects velocity, velocity affects bullet action, and a bullet that starts out slower at the muzzle is going to drop below the magic speed mark at a closer distance than one starting out faster.

For the above reasons I currently pick up (when I can find it) some Wolf/Monarch when I can to burn up in practice and I pick-up either Monarch Soft Points and/or Federal XM193F to stockpile for social work for Samantha my 16" barreled Saiga. "For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity." That pretty much fits my battle plan. For poking holes in barriers at close range I have shotguns with buckshot and slugs.

Hope that helps some. All take note. This was not a .223 vs 7.62x39 vs .308 thing. Just presenting the info. Each person has to study and select what they feel comfortable with in their SHTF scenarios, dreams, and nightmares.

Same thread, post #12; My opinion is based primarily on information obtained from the following article:

“In Praise of the M16 Rifle” By Chuck Taylor
From the June/July 2009 issue of SPECIAL WEAPONS for Military and Police Magazine.

Many of the facts stated in this post are direct or slightly modified quotes from the article written by Mr. Taylor.
For information regarding Chuck Taylor’s experience and knowledge, please follow the link http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/aboutchuck.html

When Eugene Stoner originally designed the M16, it had a 1/14 Twist and fired a 55 grain bullet. The 1/14 twist BARELY stabilized the round in flight causing it to destabilize and tumble upon impact. This caused “Fantastic” wounds and excellent stopping power. However during testing, the Air Force discovered that the 1/14 twist did not stabilize bullets well enough to meet US Military accuracy specifications in sub zero climates. “Someone” at Springfield Armory (then a US Government installation) authorized a change in the twist from 1/14 to 1/12 for ALL M16’s. The INCREASED stabilization caused a 40 percent reduction in stopping power. In 1983 the Army (responsible for small arms development for all the US armed forces) COMPOUNDED the problem by adopting a 1/7 twist for the new M16A2. This was so the M16A2 and the evolving M249 Squad Automatic Weapon could SHARE the heavier and longer SS109 ammunition. The 1/7 Twist further INCREASED bullet stabilization...and DECREASED stopping power by perhaps another 20 percent.

To me, this information indicates that the 62 Grain M885 Ball ammunition fired through a 1/7 Twist conceivably has 60 percent less stopping power then it’s 55 grain predecessor being fired through a 1/14 Twist. I don’t have to point out that lack of stopping power is the primary complaint regarding the M4 and M16A2 in combat. Keeping all this in mind, it seems reasonable that the further you step away from Eugene Stoners original 1/14 twist, the more you decrease the stopping power of the bullets you are firing.

BUSHMASTER states (http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/afmvi...aspx?faqid=172) that the 1/9 twist will handle 40 to 75 Grain ammunition with ¼ to ½ inch groups. I have read on various forums that if you have to relegate to shooting lower grain bullets, like 40 grain or less through a 1/7 twist, the bullet can spin apart before it leaves the barrel. If the weapon is to be used in a COMWEC (Complete Meltdown of Western Civilization) situation, or some other SHTF scenario, the 1/9 twist will accurately and safely fire the wider range of bullet weights that a person might “acquire” along the path of survival, as well as provide improved Terminal Performance over the 1/7 Twist.

As a military veteran, I have seen the M16 evolve from the M16A1 all the way through to the A4 and M4 series of rifle. This by no means makes me an expert. However, history has taught us that the U.S. Army hasn’t always made sound decisions in regards to things of this nature. Ignoring Eugene Stoners recommendation for the M16 to have chrome lined chambers and barrels in the early days of the M16 is a testament to that. Just because the Army opted for the 1/7 Twist with the adoption of the M16A2 doesn’t necessarily mean it was the RIGHT decision. The army would never make a mistake....right? Articles I have read regarding the decrease in Terminal Performance from the original designs of the M16 seem to be directly linked to the change in twist rate. It seems that the Army chose ammunition compatibility with the M249 SAW over Terminal Performance (Stopping Power). There may well be other factors, but they are unknown to me.

--------------------
Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."

Posts: 2113 | From: 43BN-37FF | Registered: Feb 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
ironshaolin
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Well, that was a rather enlightening post. It also makes me feel like I should've went with a 1/9 barrel instead of a 1/7.
A lot of this ballistics info can tend to make my head spin, and I often have a difficult time grasping it. While I get what they're saying, and it makes sense with the comparison, it leaves me wondering what is best for me.

So, maybe someone else can help. I have about 500 rounds in my "do not touch unless..." box, mixed 55 grain federal and 62 grain penetrator rounds. I have a 16" mid length, chrome lined, 1/7 barrel. What is the most effective round to put through it? There may not be a proper choice, but ideally I want something that works in close range, out to 300 yards.
I just finished reading black hawk down recently, and reading the soldiers talk about how they were getting pissed they'd have to shoot someone 8 or 9 times to put them down made me say hmm. Then this article explains why, the 62 grain round.

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"Knowing is not enough, one must do. Willing is not enough, one must apply"- Bruce Lee

Posts: 90 | From: New York | Registered: Sep 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
Texas Resistance
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For stocking up on a thousand rounds or more for the end of the world as we know it I would go with the 55 grain loads. The 55 grain has more velocity than the 62 grain so-called penetrator and the tiny penetrator pins in them do not have enough mass to penetrate worth a damn. The 55 grain bullets still have good accuracy in the less stabilized M16-A1 barrels with a 1 in 12 twist.

I have some Chi-Com steel core AP 7.62x39 (that they quit selling in the 1990's) which punched holes in the steel plate we were shooting while the 5.56 green tip 62 grain AP rounds only left little pins in the steel plates we shot.

[ 04-06-2012, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Texas Resistance ]

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www.TexasMilitia.Info “Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter” William Cooper

Posts: 2562 | From: Angelina County, TX | Registered: Jun 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
ironshaolin
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It seems like from the article, that having a 1/7 barrel will decrease terminal ballistics over a barrel with 1/9. From what I picked up, the 55gr rounds were VERY efficient from a 1/14, but became worse and worse the faster the twist.
How is the terminal ballistics on say, Hornady TAP 77gr vs. standard surplus 55gr, out of a 1/7barrel?

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"Knowing is not enough, one must do. Willing is not enough, one must apply"- Bruce Lee

Posts: 90 | From: New York | Registered: Sep 2010  | Report this post to a Moderator
Texas Resistance
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The terminal ballistics of Hornady TAP 77 might be a little better than standard surplus 55gr if you have a 1 in 7 twist barrel. But there are still a lot of rifles with 1 in 9 and 1 in 12 twist rates that will not stabilize a 77 grain bullet so I am not going to stock up on them.

Also I doubt that you could buy a 1,000 round case of 77 grain TAP cartridges at a reasonable cost like you can buy a 1,000 round case of M193 55 gr. rounds for a reasonable cost.

When the 1 in 7 twist barrels first came out I remember reading of a test in Guns & Ammo Magazine that showed a chrome lined 1 in 7 twist Colt barrel having excessive throat and barrel wear after only 1,000 rounds had been fired due to the excessive twist rate

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www.TexasMilitia.Info “Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter” William Cooper

Posts: 2562 | From: Angelina County, TX | Registered: Jun 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Vader
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quote:
Rudy This necessitated a 1-7” twist to improve the penetration of the new M-855/SS109 round.
I have seen other images showing the Cavity and Fragmentation of both the M193 and M855 rounds and going by what I have seen both the M193 and M855 will fragment adequately, but with the M193 having greater fragmentation.

And from what I know, since I was not privy to what went on between the Officers who made the decision to change to the 1/7 twist rate, the 1/7 twist was not to improve Penetration, but to improve the accuracy of Tracer Rounds.

I looked at both the Text and Diagrams that you linked to and judging by those diagrams and the text written on those diagrams it seems to me that both of the rounds will adequately fragment. In fact the text in the Images states that the M193 has 36% Fragmentation while the M855 has 50% Fragmentation.

You stated:
quote:
The 55 grain bullet has the reputation of splitting into multiple projectiles at the cannelure. The new 62 grain bullet has that steel penetrator just under the cannelure. This prevents the bullet from breaking apart. Now the bullet must rely solely on the tumbling to increase the temporary wound channel. Gone are the days of the bullet breaking into multiple pieces and causing several would channels.
That is not backed up by the Images you linked to. The M855 does Fragment but it just doesn't do it as much as the M193, which is my feeling although just going by the Images and text on the Images it seems that the M855 Fragments more.

Also the text you linked to states:
quote:
Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.
Also:
quote:
Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.
And finally there is this:
quote:
The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.
Now to obtain the most effective Terminal Ballistics from either the M193 or the M855 each bullet should be fired from a barrel that has a twist rate just fast enough to stabilize the Bullet, since instability upon entering the target is what makes the 5.56x45 so lethal.

For the 55 grain the twist rate should be 1/12 for the 62 grain 1/9 and for the 77 grain or tracer 1/7.

Also the biggest reason for the apparent lack of Lethality for the 62 grain is not the 1/7 twist rate, it is the darn M4 with it's 14.5 inch barrel.

The 5.56 needs velocity to be effective and too much velocity is lost by going from a 20 inch to a 14.5 inch barrel.

Unless the shooter is going to be engaging in CQC as in 25Yd or less he or she would be a lot better off with at least a 16 inch barrel, and I believe that the best barrel length is 20 inch. It is long enough but not too long.

As to my personal choice in Ammo I prefer the M193 due to cost and when I can afford it I will be getting the Black Hills 77 grain that they are marketing to the Military, and that requires the 1/7 twist.

--------------------
VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Rudy
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Sniper:

I agree with several if not all of your closing statements. Your twist rates and bullet weights match up to my readings on the subject.
Below are 3 statements that I know are true from reloading:
1. Longer bullets need a faster twist rate to stabilize their flight.
2. The only practical way to make a bullet heavier is to make it longer.
3. You cannot load heavier bullets to the same velocity as lighter bullets, and maintain safe pressure load.

It is an endless circle. To improve a bullet’s terminal ballistics, weight is generally added. This causes a reduction in velocity if one is to maintain safe pressure. Lower velocity requires a faster twist rate to counter the effects of reduction in velocity. The faster twist rate twist rate increases the penetration which lessens the wound channel.

You are correct about the 1-7” being required to stabilize the tracer round. It is purported to be ¼” longer than the ball round. Add to the formula that the round actually looses weight as it flies to the target.

I too prefer the M193 for target practice, and defense. My current rifle has an 11.5” barrel with the 1-9 twist. I am in the process of switching it out for a 16.25” 1-7” barrel. While I feel the 1-9 would be satisfactory for my use, I want the option to be able to shoot the heaviest bullet possible. 1-9 would limit me to rounds of 68 grains and less.

--------------------
Rudy out
"Once the pin is pulled, Mr. Handgrenade is no longer our friend."

Posts: 2113 | From: 43BN-37FF | Registered: Feb 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
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Here is what experience has taught me:

1. M193 works WONDERFULLY when fired from 1x7" barrels within typical fire-fight distances (150 yds and under).
2. M855 sometimes works - sometimes doesn't. I DON'T TRUST IT TO WORK AT ALL.
3. I have a USMC Sniper brother that gets one shot kills out to 700 meters with 77 grain 5.56x45 ammo.

All my barrels are 1x7" twist. That way I can shoot ANY 5.56 round.

M193 penetrates steel BETTER than M855 out to 200 meters or so.

I so no reason whatsoever to purchase M855 ammo. Buy M193 and stack it as deep as you can - it will literally be worth its weight in gold in future times.

Get 500 to 1,000 rounds of 75 to 77 grain 5.56 for the times you want to reach out there and touch someone.

Shoot Wolf ammo for all your training needs so you don't shoot up your good ammo.

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
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Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Folcwine01
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TI, your brother have any experience with the Mk318?

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Folcwine

Posts: 378 | From: Lewis County, WA | Registered: Aug 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Archangel1
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quote:
Originally posted by Folcwine01:
TI, your brother have any experience with the Mk318?

I second that question.

I run a stainless 1/9 twist 16" barrel which suggests that 77 grain bullets are not appropriate. Fortunately, I only bought 420 rds of 855 and the rest is 55 gr 193.

So what should I buy (Mk318,64gr BVAC, 68gr BVAC, Hornady, etc.) other than 193 if I want a heavier bullet when running the 1/9 barrel? Do I consider buying another barrel?

Will I have issues with Wolf steel shells when using a stainless barrel? My gunsmith and the local range owner both told me that steel shells and stainless barrels don't make good bedfellows. Lots of FTEs and stuck shells. Chrome lined barrels were slicker and didn't seem to have as many problems. The AKs with chrome barrels also don't have the heat issue. Your thoughts?

--------------------
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always Bad Men." Lord Actin 1887

I fear we live in evil times...

Posts: 737 | From: West | Registered: Feb 2012  | Report this post to a Moderator
tire iron
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Folc and Aa - I only have short range results and the word is the new Mk319 is doing what it should! My buddy is still using 77 grain for long range engagements.

Aa - I would suggest you get a good quality barrel (that is chrome lined) - and get it in 1x7".

Then follow the advice on ammo I gave in my previous post.

cheers

tire iron

--------------------
An amateur practices something until he gets it right - a pro practices something until he can't do it wrong.
My Schools: http://www.acpsllc.com
http://utahguntraining.com
Utah Gun Training

Posts: 3425 | From: utah | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Archangel1
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quote:
Originally posted by tire iron:
Folc and Aa - I only have short range results and the word is the new Mk319 is doing what it should! My buddy is still using 77 grain for long range engagements.

Aa - I would suggest you get a good quality barrel (that is chrome lined) - and get it in 1x7".

Then follow the advice on ammo I gave in my previous post.

cheers

tire iron

Thanks for the barrel and ammo tips.

I may build a 2nd upper for longer distances. 16", 18" or 20" 1x7 chrome lined barrel? I was going to build a 6.8 but don't know if ammo will be around in quantity.

XM193 ammo is scarce. Do you suggest laying down PRIVI or BVAC new brass 55gr ammo since I can't seem to find bulk Federal XM193.

Thanks

--------------------
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always Bad Men." Lord Actin 1887

I fear we live in evil times...

Posts: 737 | From: West | Registered: Feb 2012  | Report this post to a Moderator
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