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Author Topic: .223 Hollow Point or FMJ
EMSguy11
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So the question is HP or not to HP. I have 68gr BTHP hand loads. What is the best round for anti personnel and an all around combat projectile? I know FMJ's would be the way to go but are HP really that bad? Any input would be great.

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"Fear may cause hesitation but hesitation may cause your worst fears to come true."

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SnakeEyes
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Personally I would want AP ammo just in case the bad guys I am forced to give the Swiss cheese treatment are wearing body armor.

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"All men are timid on entering any fight. Whether it is the first or the last fight, all of us are timid. Cowards are those who let their timidity get the better of their manhood." - Gen Patton

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SBL
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I think both will go through most body armor, but not ceramic plates. I'm assuming you're shooting this out of an AR?

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On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.

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Texas Resistance
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.223 rounds do not have enough weight for the hardend core to be of any value. Steel cores greatly increase penetration with .308, .30-06, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R rounds.

I have shot 1/4'' steel plate with .223 AP that just left the little steel pins stuck in the plate while Chi-Com 7.62x39 AP went right through.

There are two kinds of hollow points. Expanding hollow points and match grade target boat tail hollow points that are not designed to expand.

Expanding hollow points are best for anti-personnel use if you can hit a place on the enemy that is not armored.

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www.TexasMilitia.Info “Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter” William Cooper

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EMSguy11
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Yes im shooting these out of a Bushmaster AR-15. I also did not know there was a difference between BTHP and expanding HP's. As long as I dont come against armor or ceramic inserts will the 68gr BTHP work just fine? Thanks for info

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"Fear may cause hesitation but hesitation may cause your worst fears to come true."

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Texas Resistance
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I think your 68 grain BTHP is a good bullet but you need a barrrel twist rate faster than the old M-16A1 twist rate of 1 in 12 to stablize it. Like I said so called .223 AP is not worth the cost because even .223 AP has little penetration.

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www.TexasMilitia.Info “Seek out and join a lawful Militia or form one in your area. If you wish to remain Free you will have to fight for it...because the traitors will give us no choice in the matter” William Cooper

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EMSguy11
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Thanks TR, Im glad i didnt load 2000 rds of that ammo for nothing. Thanks guys for all the info

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"Fear may cause hesitation but hesitation may cause your worst fears to come true."

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Lostangel
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Put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. Body armor will not protect you from the impact, just the penetration. Believe me, I have seen many a broken rib and/or sternum from a bullet wound with a vest.

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I came into this world kicking , screaming and covered in someone else's blood , I've got no problem with going out the same way

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Hawk45
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Main thing to worry about is will YOUR weapon feed it reliably? If it jams, no bullet will be hitting your opponent.

By reliable, I mean 100% or EVERYTIME! Combat is no place for hang fires or failure to feed.

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noname762
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quote:
Originally posted by EMSguy11:
So the question is HP or not to HP. I have 68gr BTHP hand loads. What is the best round for anti personnel and an all around combat projectile? I know FMJ's would be the way to go but are HP really that bad? Any input would be great.

My take on this question is it feasible or just using HP or FMJ rounds. Since they have declared on us and the Geneva Convention won't apply as we are civilians. I will use what works whether its ball ammo or HP or AP or tracer.

Since they'll also have APC's plus the whole 9 yards IED's are bound to come into play.

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Grass fed Beef..it's what's fer supper July 4th.

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Breacher
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I would be a lot more concerned with weapon reliability than whether or not the bullet happens to be more lethal. Then there is the ammo supply issue.

Tests I have seen with the ss109 ammo were that it did a better job of penetrating cover. Maybe not steel plate, but cover in general. Performance was described as being about equal to non-AP .308.

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Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.

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Lord Vader
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There are a few things to consider as to using expanding ammo for combat.

If the Bullet is a Hollow Point Match, like Federal Match it is not designed to expand, the Hollow Point is there for Accuracy, so if it will expand at all, I have not sure but I believe it does not expand.

If the Bullet is a Hollow Point Hunting Bullet then it will expand but that may not be what you need for use in Combat.

Here is one problem with using Hunting Hollow Points in 223 or 5.56x45, they are made for Varmint Hunting of small animals and expand too fast and do not have enough penetration for larger animals and a person is a larger animal.

Also if a Bullet expands it will not Yaw (tumble) and Fragment which is not good for close range combat.

Another thing is standard m193 ammo and all other FMJ bullets Yaw which causes it to fragment at high velocity making it a very good close range combat round as long as the Velocity is over I believe 2,700 fps. Depending on Barrel Length it should fragment at up to approximately 200 yd or a little greater with a 20 inch Barrel. I am going by memory and I may be off as to Maximum Range. With a 16 inch Barrel the range will be a lot shorter, I believe it is around 120 yd.

My choice would be as long as cost of ammo is not a big problem would be to use the 75gr HP or 77gr HP since they are both target rounds and should perform well as combat rounds. Also Black Hills loads either a 75 or 77 grain round for the Military and I believe it is also available for us mere Civilians, and from what I know about it, it is very effective up to fairly long range and is very accurate which is very important to me.

So the Black Hills round or similar would be my first choice in 5.56x45.

Now in .308 or 7.62x51 my first choice would be an expanding bullet but not a hollow point. My choice would be a Ballistic Tip like the Hornady A-Max or Hornady SST. Between them my first choice would be the A-Max for loaded ammo since it is a Match Load and I love Accuracy.

As to the Hague Convention I don't give a rat's ass about it, and neither should any other Freedom Fighter. I will use whatever is best and if that is an expanding bullet then I will use it and if the enemy doesn't like it they can go to that Eternally Hot Place.

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
SBL
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What do you guys think of frangible ammo?

I saw some International brand .223 frangible in 45gr RP and 55gr JOT.

--------------------
On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.

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Lord Vader
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quote:
Originally posted by SBL:
What do you guys think of frangible ammo?

I saw some International brand .223 frangible in 45gr RP and 55gr JOT.

It depends on what you intend to use it for.

For fun where you don't want to have any problems with ricochets it is what you want, but for serious use, as in fighting I would not even consider using it unless I was completely out of REAL ammo. Even a BB gun is better then nothing especially if you aim for the eyes.

I will take a guess that the Ammo you are asking about is made for indoor use at a shooting range, the same as frangible 22LR ammo is used for Shooting Galleries.

Now how that ammo behaves when used for defense I have no way to know for sure how good or bad it would be, but I will take an educated guess and say that it would not have very much penetration and might even blow up or more accurately disintegrate on impact.

I suppose it would cause a very severe and painful surface or shallow wound but I would not depend on it to stop the enemy before he shot me.

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Asher
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Well what about DIY AP rounds. I was thinking if I heated a copper jacket enough to melt the lead then placed a hardened steel pin in the soft lead allow it to cool/harden. Then hand hand load the new rounds with some extra powder I'd have cheaper AP rounds in a DIY fashion.
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Lord Vader
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher:
Well what about DIY AP rounds. I was thinking if I heated a copper jacket enough to melt the lead then placed a hardened steel pin in the soft lead allow it to cool/harden. Then hand hand load the new rounds with some extra powder I'd have cheaper AP rounds in a DIY fashion.

Not a very good idea there are a few things I see wrong with it but for now I will just ask.

How much is your time worth?

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

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Breacher
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No, don't even screw around with it. Just stock up on ammo and not play games with modified ammo. This is one of those situations where quantity matters, not maximum lethality tweakage. Rifle rounds are so lethal anyway that you should not be worrying about some tweakage on some particular round as much as just being able to get a second or third hit in if the first does not put the bad guy down. We are not talking clean kills on game meat, if some fucker is screaming and bitching over getting his leg blown off but did not die clean, that's fine, his buddies carry him off the scene and that's three of them out of the game, and quite possibly having dropped their shit before bailing. As a matter of fact, I would even capture one or two and let them know that if we wound one, and he ditches his weapon and gear on the spot and just runs, we will not even chase after him or fire at an opponent who is wounded and limping/crawling/running or being carried away.

Make sure they get this message: Want a free trip out of the ambush zone? Drop your shit and walk out with your hands in the air, that's it, and don't come back. If you do come back, drop your shit again and walk away again.

The enemy has to know there are some really easy ways to walk away unhurt, or at least not hurt any more, and that's to surrender their shit and or quit.

I don't need the most lethal ammo in the world to create sufficient enemy force attrition to win, but I do need ammo, and I do need to be able to hit something with that ammo, and I need it fed through a weapon that definitely goes bang when I pull the trigger and those bullets do pretty darn well spot on where I am aiming, within reason.

If you really want to get into being creative, then set up one of those rigs that allows you to make .223 bullets out of .22lr cases. Not the most accurate rounds from what I hear, but pretty good for training purposes and CQB where an extra MOA or two are irrelevant.

There are some shit guns out there which are NOT "better than nothing", in fact can very well be a detriment to unit survivability. A lot of junk out there is only good for getting you into legal trouble, or causing overconfidence which can get you killed when going up against a well armed and determined opponent.

There is also that crossover point where a good knife is better than a bad gun.

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Life liberty, and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

Trump: not the president America needs, but the president America deserves.

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5.56
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Folks,

Having used 168 BTHP SMK loads to take game here are some results from real life usage.

Bear, the round went through the chest and blew the shoulder off. The front leg hanfing by a 2" piece of skin. Exit hole the size of 2 fists held together.

Deer, again a massive exit hole.

Groundhogs, tossed 5 feet in the air and almost cut in half.

Lesson learned: Do not use 168 BTHP SMK on game that you wish to consume. Far too much tissue damage. But if you do not care how much damage it does...........

168 gr are a good load, but they run out of steam and go subsonic at about 800 yards or so. 175's will let me engage out to 1,000 meters or 1,100 yards with my AR10.

Maximum accuracy with maximum performance. I DO NOT SEE alot of long range engagements vs alot of CQC which will be the most common. mags are 25rd. 2 147 API, 1 Tracer the rest are Sierra Match Kings BTHP.

5.56

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Lord Vader
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This site has information on the Terminal Ballistics of a few .308 and .223 rounds, including the 168gr, 175GR BTHP SMK

It has pictures and videos of the wound channels and recovered bullets.

http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Asher
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quote:
Originally posted by Sniper_762X51:
quote:
Originally posted by Asher:
Well what about DIY AP rounds. I was thinking if I heated a copper jacket enough to melt the lead then placed a hardened steel pin in the soft lead allow it to cool/harden. Then hand hand load the new rounds with some extra powder I'd have cheaper AP rounds in a DIY fashion.

Not a very good idea there are a few things I see wrong with it but for now I will just ask.

How much is your time worth?

How bout you just give me the whole reasons and save us both some time?
Posts: 578 | From: West Virginia | Registered: Jul 2009  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Vader
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher:
quote:
Originally posted by Sniper_762X51:
quote:
Originally posted by Asher:
Well what about DIY AP rounds. I was thinking if I heated a copper jacket enough to melt the lead then placed a hardened steel pin in the soft lead allow it to cool/harden. Then hand hand load the new rounds with some extra powder I'd have cheaper AP rounds in a DIY fashion.

Not a very good idea there are a few things I see wrong with it but for now I will just ask.

How much is your time worth?

How bout you just give me the whole reasons and save us both some time?
Friend, the reason I only posted what I did was very simple I was a little busy with other things.

Now since you want all the reasons I will provide them.

There are only four reasons to load your own ammo.

To save money.

To have more accurate ammo especially if you custom tailor the load to the weapon.

To have a load that is not available already loaded.

And the last reason, simply because you enjoy loading your own.

quote:

I'd have cheaper AP rounds in a DIY fashion.

Since the reason you want to load your own is to save money my comment How much is your time worth should be all you need since if you take into consideration how long it would take to do it yourself vs how much you would save it does not make economic sense to load your own. Now if it is a hobby and you enjoy the time you spend loading, then it makes sense but there are a lot of other issues with doing what you want to do.

quote:

Then hand hand load the new rounds with some extra powder

I have to ask a question, how much do you know about reloading?

Going by what you posted I am thinking that you don't know much about hand loading.

First why do you think you need extra powder? I will assume that you believe that after you insert that steel Penetrator you will end up with a heavier bullet, which is the opposite of what will happen. The bullet would actually get lighter since steel is lighter then the lead that it would displace.

And even if the bullet were to be heavier, adding powder could be dangerous.

A competent and safe reloader should always start with a mild load and carefully work up to a hotter load.

Now for some more problems with doing as you are thinking of.

First thing you would need to do is have some way to heat the bullets and hold the bullets while they are heated. How did you intend on holding them.

If you intended to heat one bullet at a time and were thinking of using hemostats or forceps, forget it, one thing is hemostats make very good heat sinks and would get to hot to hold and another if the bullet was heated enough to soften the lead, the hemostat might dent or crush the bullet. Also it would be a PITA to hold the bullet steady enough while working on it. And even if you used a vice to hold the hemostat there would still be the problem of denting the bullet and it would still be slow.


How do you intend to heat up the bullet enough to soften up the lead enough to insert the penetrator?

For one bullet at a time, a propane torch should work, but you still need a way to hold the bullets.

What you would need is some type of Loading Block to hold the bullets base up and it would only be able to contact the tip of the bullet unless you were willing to let the entire loading block be the same temperature as the bullets and if you wanted to do that then there would be the problem of how to heat up the entire block.

Now lets say you solved the problem of heating up the bullets how large of a penetrator did you intend to insert?

If it is large enough to actually be effective for penetration then there is another problem.

Any worthwhile penetrator will have enough volume to cause you a problem with the lead that is already in the bullet.

Two Objects can not occupy the same place at the same time.

Think of it this way, if you have a glass of water that is filled to the top so that adding anymore water will cause the water to overflow and you attempted to put a steel rod into that water, the steel rod or rod made of anything would cause the water to overflow the glass.

It is the same with the lead that is inside the bullet.

The penetrator that is used in the M855 ammo is fairly large compared to the size of the bullet and would displace a significant amount of lead if it could be inserted into an already manufactured bullet which judging by the photos I have seen can not be inserted since it is located in front of the lead.

By the way the M855 has a steel penetrator and is not classified as AP, it is the M955 that has a Tungsten Alloy Penetrator that is AP.

To do as you want to do you would have to use a penetrator of a lot smaller diameter that could be inserted from the bullets rear and even then it would still displace enough lead for the lead to overflow the bullet jacket which in my way of thinking is not something I would want to deal with.

Also there would be a good chance the penetrator would unbalance the bullet which would not be good for accuracy.

Now as to what I stated at the beginning of this post about the weight of the bullet being lighter, the reason it would be lighter, is due to the fact that the steel penetrator would be lighter then the lead it would displace, so you would end up with a lighter bullet.

And since you intend to use a steel penetrator and not tungsten you would still end up without a real AP load.

Now if you want to do all this just for fun then do it and enjoy it since we all need to have fun once in a while and the way the future is looking we should have our fun while we can still have fun.

And one last thing since I am getting tired and I have said all that is important on this issue and I have other things I have to do, is this.

To the best of what I know, even if you could make real AP ammo, I believe it would be illegal.

And here is something for you to look at it shows the inside construction of the M855 Green Tip bullet.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/585213_M855_Bullets_and_Their_Construction.html

And there is also this.

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=300537

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=162448

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Folcwine01
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As long as you are careful, Asher, give it a try. If you add a pin to it, I don't suspect it will work against armor any better than normal lead core ammo, depending on the type you put in. Also, you would want to make sure that the pin is fully encased as it could "slip" if not.

I do agree that you should start low and work up on the loads to make sure you are running safe.

Additionally, test is on some decent steel material. 3/8 - 1/2 inch steel should work as a starting point. Not the super soft carbon steel, but some good high carbon steel. If it pops nice holes, you got a good load for AP. If not, well, might be some doctoring you can do, so long as the load is in the safe realm.

The construction of M855 and the newer tungsten core ammo's uses a pretty sizable chunk of material backed by lead (that comparative). Tungsten is the better choice between the two, weighs more and is much harder. There again, much more difficult to work with.

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Folcwine

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Lord Vader
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quote:
Folcwine01
Tungsten is the better choice between the two, weighs more and is much harder. There again, much more difficult to work with.

I would never use tungsten since it would be making a M955 AP load and that is violating Fed Law.

If I was willing to risk time at Club Fed which I do not, I would not risk it for a stupid AP bullet that is really not of much practical use. Now if you wanted to make a AP bullet for pistol use then at least you would be risking prison time for something a lot more useful then a 5.56x45 AP load.

By the way if you did make your own bullet regardless of what metal the penetrator is made of I believe that the feds would try to prove that it was a real AP bullet just to use to nail you like they did with Blade Runner.

Also just making a loading block to hold the bullets would be a lot of work since it would need to be made of something capable of resisting the level of heat needed to soften the lead. It may need to be made of steel and the holes in the block should be shaped like the nose of the bullet is shaped and is going to take more then just using a regular Drill Bit.

Also as I previously stated inserting a penetrator would cause some of the lead to come out of the bullet which would have to be dealt with.

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VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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