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Dutchman6
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Riflemen
Mike Vanderboegh
12 April 2008

"The speed with which tactical forces forget the main lessons from their collected experience, particularly those pertaining to weapons usage, would be difficult to overstate." -- S.L.A. Marshall, Commentary on Infantry Operations and Weapons Usage in Korea, Winter of 1950-51, p. 15


"Combat Packs" Ain't For Combat

After my last essay, Strippers, I received some disputatious comments regarding my insistence that only ammunition combat packed in stripper clips, bandoleers and easy-open steel ammo cans counted when the excrement hits the rotary oscillator. I was asked, "What about 'combat packs?'" For the uninitiated, "Combat packs" (also known as "Battle Packs") are plastic sleeves of boxed ammunition. The South African 7.62 NATO version is shown below.

(PHOTO MISSING)

Caption from Cheaper Than Dirt Catalog: "South African .308 military surplus ammo 147gr Berdan Primed, copper jacketed, 20 rounds per commercial style box, 140-rounds comes in sealed battle package. We sell these by these 140 round battle pack."


Calling this form of packaging "battle packs" is, to my mind, false advertising of the kind that can get you killed. Trying to reload magazines or en bloc clips with loose rounds under fire is suicidal madness. Another critic said that his 7.62x39 ammo was just fine in the original "tuna cans" it came in from China. "It'll never go bad," he insisted. "And you'll never get a chance to use it in a hurry," I immediately countered. Oh, no, he said, he could show me right then how fast someone who had practiced the Zen of Chinese Tuna Cans could just whip it open in half-an-instant. I challenged him to open the can with that cumbersome Chicom can opener in the dark while I fired rounds into the dirt beside him. He declined, but grudgingly admitted my point. Look folks, you can doubt my ancestry if you wish, but never doubt my footnotes. Here's another one that makes my (and Mae West's) point about packaging being everything, this time of Korean War vintage:


"There is a special hazard to infantry in night defense, revealed in a number of the company perimeter fights, which comes of taking loose ammunition into the ground to be defended. In these several examples the men thought that what they had at hand would be sufficient, but several spare boxes of grenades and of loose ammunition for the M1 were carried within the position just in case they might be needed. These companies were engaged throughout the night; before first light broke, the grenades and cartridges which the men were carrying were all but expended. It was then necessary to break open the loose stores. These were excellent combat companies and had so proved themselves in the fight up to that time. Yet such was the pressure of the dark and the enemy fire, and such the consequent nervous excitement, that the NCOs found they were unable to open the grenade boxes; after struggling vainly with them for many minutes, they at last dashed them on the rocks. Then the grenades spilled out over the hillside, and men had to crawl around, feeling for them in the dark.


The situation was even worse with the loose rifle ammunition. There were no spare clips and the firers had dropped their own without noting where they fell. It was necessary to feel around the rims of the foxholes in the darkness to retrieve the clips; by the time the clips had been gathered, nerve tension had so greatly increased that even the leaders found it almost impossible to make their own fingers respond to the seemingly simple task of clipping the cartridges. Said one NCO of this experience: 'Though I have had many nights in combat, this sweat of having to deal with loose ammunition in the dark was the most demoralizing experience I have known.' Troops are not supposed to take loose ammunition into an active position under any circumstance; the fact remains that they do. The supply situation and the lack of time for full precautions sometimes impose this extra burden on the infantry company. But any grenade case which is so secure that it baffles ordinary enterprise in the darkness is probably a little too secure for security." -- -- S.L.A. Marshall, Commentary on Infantry Operations and Weapons Usage in Korea, Winter of 1950-51, pp 13-14




"A little too secure for security." That sums up my argument against tuna cans precisely. I think I already made my point about Isandlwana. OK, so once more, you are NOT tactically ready until your ammo is truly combat packed in stripper clips, bandoleers, steel GI ammo cans and crates to facilitate storage, transportation and easy usage at the point of contact.


"They could not hit their shriveled testicles with their own crooked members" : "Sniper Disease" and the "Full-Auto Syndrome"


Finally, one critic defended his planned use of loose rounds because, he said, he was a "sniper." My old buddy Bob Wright of New Mexico can wax most profanely, even obscenely, eloquent relating his experiences with constitutional militia recruits of the 90s infected with "the sniper disease." Now I'd like to preface what I'm about to say (and quote) on this subject by specifying that these observations are NOT about actual military snipers. They are directed at those of the armed citizenry who, without a DD-214, embrace what has become the "sniper myth." Perhaps the best way to do this is to quote from the manual on Sniper Employment (Book Three, 0500) from the Scout/Sniper Instructor School, Marine Corps Combat Development Command. Any Marine scout sniper will be able to recite this definition from Page One of that manual:

"A scout/sniper is a Marine highly skilled in fieldcraft and marksmanship who delivers long range, precision fire at selected targets from concealed positions IN SUPPORT OF COMBAT OPERATIONS. The PRIMARY MISSION of a scout/sniper in combat is to SUPPORT COMBAT OPERATIONS by delivering precision fire on selected targets from concealed positions. The scout/sniper also has a secondary mission of gathering information for intelligence purposes. (Emphasis supplied, MBV)


The Marines are unique in training men to be both scouts and snipers for the two missions are often mutually exclusive. Scouts, by nature, should gather intelligence and never engage unless forced to do so by the enemy or changed circumstances. Snipers on the other hand are tasked to commit maximum damage to the enemy by removing high-value targets -- enemy snipers, officers, forward observers, senior NCOs, crew served weapons and the personnel who serve them, commo gear, observations devices and ground surveillance radars. This dual tasking by the Marines puts great stress on the scout/sniper, whose intelligence and discipline is assumed to be up to the task of knowing when he is a scout and when he is a sniper. This is in keeping with the long history of the USMC in getting the most out of every asset they possess (which explains why reserve Marines were still being issued WWII K rations up into the 1970s, for example).

Still, whether the sniper is Army or Marine, their actions are always directed by the unit commander or his designated subordination (in the case of the Marines it is usually the battalion S-2). And although sniper teams (usually two men) are given much greater latitude in prowling the battlefield looking for targets THEY ALWAYS DO THIS IN CONCERT AND COORDINATION WITH THE LARGER UNIT. To do otherwise is to risk the lives of the team or of the overall plan. There are times when a commander does NOT want things happening in a certain sector, or for certain enemy personnel to be targeted lest the enemy tumble to his overall plan. Snipers, in short, and this is contrary to the sniper myth that has grown up on the civilian side, are not "lone wolves" prowling about independently. They are an important, integral part of a combat arms TEAM.

Few military snipers match the great body of fiction literature which has grown up around them. Indeed, although there are certainly exceptions to this rule, dealing with the average sniper of our opponents in the wars of the 20th and 21st centuries has been and is a simple three minute field problem for any competent American Army or Marine squad.

Indeed, although there has recently been much Jihadist blather about "master snipers" culling American trophies in Iraq, the truth is much more prosaic. Witness this anecdote sent to me from the Baghdad AO of the 101st Airborne Division:


"I will give you an example of what happened a couple of weeks ago. I was with a patrol that stopped along the border of Shulla and Ghaz. There was a sniper that had been popping off shots every so often for about three days. This guy hit no where close to what they should have been aiming at so the (101st) guys that we ran into that had a static OP on the site really did not pay it any attention. They said the guy must have an AK because at 300 meters or so the fire was completely ineffective. Well we get back to (name of base redacted) and lo and behold the IA (Iraqi Army) actually got the two bastards (19 year old punk kids), beat the hell out of them, stuffed them into the trunk of their nice BMW get away car and brought them over to us. The pictures are included. If this is an example of (the) Legend of Jabba or Judy or whatever, then I will say what I have always said about these heathen bastards; they could not hit their shriveled testicles with their own crooked members. The Dragunov that they had had the scope taped onto the rifle with packing tape.(!)


There is and will always be a persistent threat of sniper fire. As (my wife) says, "even a blind chicken finds corn every now and then". While it is a threat I would treat it like any other out here. TTP's (Army Tactics, Techniques and Procedures) have not been affected by a rash of accurate fire coming from parts unknown. In this AO it just is not an issue. IED's and ambushes, on the other hand, are very much a part of the game."


(PHOTO MISSING)





(I have attached a copy of the photograph of this pitiful excuse for a Dragunov to this email, but as I am unskilled at this business, it may or may not come through. I hope it does because it is a hoot.)

Back on the home front, I concur with Bob Wright's trenchant observations on armed citizens of the unorganized militia who eschew joining with others because (they say) they are "lone wolves" who need no training or organization. The militia "sniper's" motivation, he believes, reflects a fear of joining with others of like mind to train because behind that reluctance is "a positive terror of closing with and engaging an enemy." Indeed, Bob says that in his experience with militia "snipers" the "sizes of their rifle scopes are inversely proportional to their courage." "All this crap about a military sniper operating on their own, at their own orders and discretion like a 'lone wolf' is (expletive deleted). Yeah, a military sniper is on his own -- except for his spotter, his security team, the supporting squad, the Quick Reaction Force, the aviation assets for extraction and aerial fire support, plus the artillery, the overhead drones, the commo net and the satellite imagery. All of which the armed citizenry is a little shy of." "As soon as somebody tells you that he is a 'militia sniper' what he is saying is that he is not part of your team, will not be part of any team and lacks even the guts to form his own team. He justifies his own inaction by claiming an MOS that he is incapable of fulfilling. And if he did it in front of real military snipers they'd kick his ass for being a wannabe. Hell, read Hathcock's book and you will find that the bulk of his kills were made from a firebase perimeter." I might add that such perimeters were not perimeters made up of one "lone wolf" Marine.


Rush Limbaugh calls himself the "Doctor of Democracy." Well perhaps. But as a self-taught consulting physician specializing in the wellness of geriatric republics, in my opinion "the full-auto syndrome" is just as malignant as "sniper disease" to the health and fitness of the armed citizenry. And the armed citizenry, I should not have to remind you, is the lifeblood and muscle of any true republic. Snipers, true snipers -- the long range marksmen who combine Camp Perry marksmanship with extreme physical fitness and field skills -- are a valuable, if small, part of the body of the armed citizenry. But what this republic needs more than anything right now is RIFLEMEN. Not the "range goobs" (as one of my buddies calls them) afflicted with "full-auto syndrome" who go to the range and blast away on fast semi (or full auto if they have the tax stamp) with all the inaccuracy and false pride of a monkey masturbating before a zoo crowd. You've all seen them. Heck, we've all done it once or twice, pulling the trigger just to see how fast we can empty a magazine. I'm talking about the guys who do it routinely, blasting away backstop dirt for no particular purpose. Like the Jihadists of Iraq, "they could not hit their shriveled testicles with their own crooked members."


Let me return, if I may, to the lessons of the Korean War laid out by S.L.A. Marshall in a section titled the Value of Slow Fire:

The Korean experience proves substantially that the fighting posture of the line is most sound when automatic fire is combined with slow fire in its weapons complex. . . Suffice to say now that any trend toward eliminating the semi-automatic, hand-carried weapons in favor of full-automatic weapons in the hands of all infantrymen should be vigorously combated. In perimeter defense, the time almost invariably comes when the automatic weapons run short of ammunition, with the local issue still to be decided. This is the crisis of the contest, when decision may swing either way, depending on which side is most capable of delivering the last few volleys.


THE SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ARE CONSERVERS OF AMMUNITION. (Emphasis supplied, MBV) Apart from their great value in the hands of a good marksman at any stage of the fight, they compose the weapons reserve which becomes of inestimable value in the last hours when both sides are near the point of exhaustion. In the infantry company data from Korean operations there are numerous examples wherein the retention of the position depended finally on fire from the M1, and rifle fire finally decided the issue. The troops who carry the weapon almost unanimously recognize the vital importance of this factor. On the basis of their experience, they would not concur in any suggestion that the line could be strengthened by fitting it exclusively with full-automatic fire." -- S.L.A. Marshall, Commentary on Infantry Operations and Weapons Usage in Korea, Winter of 1950-51, p. 9




Planting "Appleseeds," One Rifleman at a Time



"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."


We are fortunate today to have an organization that is traveling about the country, teaching Americans once more how to become, and what it means to be, a RIFLEMAN -- the Appleseed Project of the Revolutionary War Veterans Association. Let me quote from their website, http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ :


Welcome to the Appleseed Project


What the RWVA (Revolutionary War Veterans Association) is all about:
The Appleseed Program is designed to take you from being a simple rifle owner to being a true rifleman. All throughout American history, the rifleman has been defined as a marksman capable of hitting a man-sized target from 500 yards away — no ifs, ands or buts about it. This 500-yard range is traditionally known as "the rifleman's quarter-mile;" a rifleman can hit just about any target he can see. This skill was particularly evident in the birth of our country, and was the difference in winning the Revolutionary War.



So why me?
This country was founded and won by riflemen who fought and beat British forces. We invite all interested marksmen to learn the skills and techniques necessary to shoot proficiently; and then hope you'll participate in teaching and practicing with others so that together we can save this great land. Why you? Well, that's simple: if you're on this page we're betting you're a patriot, and we hope you answer the call.



What's a rifleman?
In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.




Aimed, semi-automatic fire has been the hallmark of the American rifleman since 1942. The competence that comes from training, the confidence that is a part of proficiency, is needed today perhaps more than any other time in our Republic's long history. For the enemies of that Republic are deterred by these three things: our competence, our preparedness, and our will. They are not deterred by self-deceived "snipers", unskilled "cooks" or wild-eyed "range goobs." When you decide to become a rifleman you join ranks with all other the soldiers of this Republic who came before, militia, regular, volunteer. I urge any and all who wish to perfect their skills as riflemen to contact the RWVA at the website above. And I'd like to leave you with this observation of S.L.A. Marshall's, written in 1951 but as true today as ever:

"In the judgment of the analyst, the great lessons from this last year of fighting experience have been in the moral rather than the material sphere. It is perfectly true that 'weapons when correctly used will invariably win decisive results,' but to leave it at that states only half the formula. Correct weapons usage is not finally the product of the perfecting of ordnance and of tactical technique but of imbuing men with a spirit which will make them wish to move and fight together as a body. So long as that spirit is present, they will do their work with crossbows and billhooks. As more complex machines and methods are added, they will learn to master them in the common purpose." -- S.L.A. Marshall, Commentary on Infantry Operations and Weapons Usage in Korea, Winter of 1950-51, p. xvi


Preserve that spirit. Become an American rifleman.

Mike Vanderboegh
PO Box 926
Pinson, AL 35126
GeorgeMason1776@aol.com

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"Tell me," I was once asked, "What do you think about gun control? Give me the short answer." To which I replied "If you try to take our firearms we will kill you."

Posts: 405 | From: Alabama | Registered: Nov 2004  | Report this post to a Moderator
Efraim
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quote:
Aimed, semi-automatic fire has been the hallmark of the American rifleman since 1942. The competence that comes from training, the confidence that is a part of proficiency, is needed today perhaps more than any other time in our Republic's long history.
Amen

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'In the hour of need, at the moment of truth; you will not rise to the occasion - you will default to your level of training' -LtCol Dave Grossman

http://ohiovolunteercorps.org/

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Imagrunt
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Great Article!

Thanks or sharing.

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I would gladly lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my battle rifle, and thank God that He has put it within my grasp.

Audit Fort Knox!

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Patriot
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Excellent!!

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Monica Lewinsky- amerikan patriot and militia poster girl. Only person in amerika that blew away a crooked president, never served a day in jail and lived to tell about it.

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Flick
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Wow, great read.

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There is no longer a U.S. Constitution. Appeal to it no more. There is now only liberty or slavery.

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yucky
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How does any of this crap apply to us?

Wouldnt trying to go toe to toe with a numerically and logistically superior force just be a senseless suicide?

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"People don't care WHAT you think, they care what you do" ME

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Yankee Canuck
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Yeah . . . .

This struggle will not be fought conventionally. I hate to say this, and I KNOW a red flag is going to pop up somewheres, but ultimately, unless you are willing to set off BOMBS and SLIT THROATS in the middle of the night, than ANY Republic one hopes to 'restore' is as good as gone. Any martial army that one hopes to defend one's family against will ultimately win in that respect.

This information is good for what it's worth. We are all riflemen in the Militia. We all need to be, because it is imparative that this will be the very basis of the combat to be seen soon. Semiautomatic weapons are best for this; an applied rifleman will never need full-auto to fight this type of warfare > > > Convoy ambush.

But you won't WIN a war with convoy ambushing in this day and age. There is more that needs to be discussed. I think too many people are still thinking along the lines of Sniper-Syndrome. Riflemen are not snipers, nor do I believe for a second that they will ever MATCH snipers.

Riflemen are riflemen. The bare MINIMUM is the rifle and ammo. The Militia will need more weapons than their semi-auto rifles to fight this war. Tactics are always good, but there's always more needed. There's always stuff that is left out, you know.

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Jews of the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Check it out:
http://www.jpfo.org/

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Abbadon
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I agree that relying on loose rounds for your immediate support ammunition is silly, but I think that we need more than just riflemen.

quote:
Aimed, semi-automatic fire has been the hallmark of the American rifleman since 1942. The competence that comes from training, the confidence that is a part of proficiency, is needed today perhaps more than any other time in our Republic's long history.
It is also true that aimed, sustained, fully-automatic fire from belt-fed weapons has been the hallmark of effective small unit war-fighters since 1893.

Assuming a stand-up fight (I agree with yucky that this would be suicide), without the ability to generate localized fire superiority, those riflemen will not be able to bring their precision fire into play, or move into an assault where they can employ the other hallmark of effective small-arms, grenades.

Our nominal opponents are trained to not only use precision rifle fire, but also precision fire from belt-fed MGs, mortars, and grenades. The MG is the primary casualty producing weapon in a small unit, and the riflemen are simply there to facilitate its placement and supplement its fire.

Anyway, I was always under the impression that the proper employment of light-weight, mass casualty producing weapons like grenades, claymores, and mortars was the most effective means of prosecuting the small unit fight.

To summarize, I guess I'm trying to say that it doesn't matter if we have the best riflemen in the world fighting for us, if that's all we have, we lose. The interaction between the riflemen, machine gunners, and other weapon systems is what makes small units effective in combat... not to mention the ability to rapidly coordinate between multiple units and other combat arms (armor, artillery, CAS, etc) in a common language with common training.

Its like we're playing a game of chess with only pawns, while our enemy has a full set of pieces. We stand almost no chance of winning.

(Disclaimer: I'm not a soldier, so all I have to go on is theory based on reading and studying from others. Do forgive if you feel I have stepped out of my lane.)

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STRATIOTES
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Maj. John Plaster Ultimate sniper Iraq , very long down load dial up be patient,

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PISTIS en XPICT faith in Christ

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Total Resistance
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"...unless you are willing to set off BOMBS and SLIT THROATS in the middle of the night, than ANY Republic one hopes to 'restore' is as good as gone..."

I had to read that again to make sure I didn't post that,lol.

The article was great up to the militia sniper part.

I've always carried my spare ammo in strippers in bandoleers to aid in reloading with a mag charger pinned to every bandoleer. Recently I've debatted just carrying my spare 5.56 ammo in magazines since they do not weigh that much compared to a FAL magazine. I also wrap the spare ammo in ziplocks to prevent any grim or water from affecting it. If I need to use that ammo I'm in trouble to begin with.

As for the militia sniper part, it makes the argument for a toe to toe engagement which would be suicide no matter how many USMC snipers, tanks or anything else you have.

The US military uses extreme force and power to destroy its enemies. If you attack a patrol, convoy or anything else they will bring the rain of steel down. If you are successful in fighting them they will set up traps for you to attack and be destroyed.

You need to attack where they do not expect it and are weak. Why attack a soldier wearing full battle rattle when you can get him when he is at the office, church or home?

The USMC sniper will not work with fighting for freedom. We are not sending small groups out to gather intelligence to call in a UAV. We are going out to eliminate enemy.

The "lone wolf" sniper the author derides works very well for this.

How will they defend or even predict where one will strike when a lone person with no affiliation to anyone else, takes his rifle he paid cash for, never touched with his bare skin and takes out a traitor from 400 yards, leaves the rifle or scatters it then dissapears.

If he's taken the time to supress this weapon or does it during a convienent time, snow storm, middle of the night it will be even harder to find or stop him.

Regardless of the supporting arms policy of the USMC sniper program, one man and a firearm CAN make a difference. Ask James Earl Ray, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth.

DO NOT fight how then enemy wants you to fight.

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www.civiliandefenseforce.com

Rule #1 - You do not publically bad mouth a fellow patriot.

"Being innocent is simply not enough for the government," Denise Simon

Posts: 1115 | From: Twilight Zone | Registered: Dec 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Total Resistance
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That was a good read Stratiotes. I have the new version but haven't read the updates yet.

Notice something very interesting in Plaster's book. The people who are in Iraq, who live there and are defending their country against a foreign invader are "terrorists". bThey do not wear a uniform. They wear civilian clothes.

Keep that in mind. If captured you will be executed. Even those who fought as part of military units in uniform are shipped off to concentration camps in Cuba.

You have two choices. Victory or death. That is the choice the government is giving people in this country too. There is no compromise, reason or debate. There is no living with or working with. There is only victory or death.

Plaster complains about bombings from the "terrorists" but what about the return fire against the Iraqi snipers? Is anyone so deluded by FOX news that they think no innocent people are killed in US bombing raids and return fire especially when shooting thousands of .50 rounds into an urban area where a sniper was?

Guess what the effect of that is? If the people have balls and brains they will then resist. The best thing that can happen here is for the beast government to come down and start erasing grid squares here. Either people will resist, or turn a blind eye like in Iraq or die the way they deserve being cowards.

I don't know if I could effectively take a killing shot with 6 people looking over my shoulder like in the one pic. I hate starting an IV with everyone standing over me watching me,lol.

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www.civiliandefenseforce.com

Rule #1 - You do not publically bad mouth a fellow patriot.

"Being innocent is simply not enough for the government," Denise Simon

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TreverSlyFox
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I am a Rifleman

I was not born a Rifleman

I was trained to be a Rifleman

My instructors were Combat Riflemen

They survived combat because they were Riflemen

I do not hunt for sport

I do not shoot for fun

I do these things to maintain my skills

I am a Combat Rifleman

I am a hunter of men

[ 05-24-2008, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: TreverSlyFox ]

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Be polite, be courteous, be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

If you had it to do all over again with what you know now. You'd just make different mistakes.

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yucky
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blah, blah,blah

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"People don't care WHAT you think, they care what you do" ME

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Imagrunt
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Don't mind Yucky.

He's upset because he read the fine print stating that REAL Riflemen can't use AKs.

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I would gladly lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my battle rifle, and thank God that He has put it within my grasp.

Audit Fort Knox!

Posts: 3469 | From: Philistine Occupied CA | Registered: Feb 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
SBL
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AKs are highly effective battle tools, especially at 150 yds or less.

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On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.

Posts: 4285 | From: Central Virginia; VIM | Registered: Jan 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Spartan14
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Interesting debate here. Clearly those of you who think we don't stand a chance haven't heard about the sucess Patriots have had in Vietnam hell even limited sucess in Iraq. There is plenty to be learned from these conflicts. We should all be able to blend in with the populace. Some missions might require you to be fully armed with spare mags rifle and pistol etc. but working in a populated area so we might not wanna be sporting full cammies and body armor in town for guerrilla missions. Versatility is the key if you think you are just the greatest lonewolf super sniper wannabe or whatever you better hurry up and get those eyes implanted in the back of your head. And for those cowards who are just posting to say we don't stand a chance, May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Oh and appleseed is a great deal though I would recommend you follow it up with some tactical shooting classes. I highly recommend www.tacticalresponse.com for training opportunities. Check out there fighting rifles and fighting pistols each of them are 2 day courses 400 a piece plus ammo 1000 rds for pistol course and 1500 rifle and 500 pistol for rifle course.

Semper Fidelis

[ 05-25-2008, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Spartan14 ]

Posts: 220 | From: Austin Texas | Registered: Nov 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
Yankee Canuck
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Well, the thing is, the Vietnamese and the Iraqis have taken some IMMENSE casualties compared to US forces, and that is from a foreign invader that does not have any political support, and who'se government is spending obscene amounts of money to keep the gorilla over there.

When it happens here, public opinion will be irrelevent, and they won't be spending as much as they will be over there (no air-support, billion-miles of logistics, etc).

I don't want anybody to take me wrong; I believe that being a better rifleman CAN make you a better fighter. I also believe that we DO have a chance. But it's not so simple as Iraq or Vietnam (not to say that either conflict was simple). Once they are HERE, there is no place for them to retreat to. We can't banish them from THEIR homes. They think they will be fighting FOR their homes. Therefore, this will go on and on and on until EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM is dead.

Now, you HAVE to kill all they send, or convince them to stop fighting you. We don't have the man-power to fight that, or the political power to propagate that. Resisting is one thing. Winning back the Republic is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT MATTER. Engaging troops openly is a BAD idea. BAD BAD BAD. The Iraqis are getting their kills from BOMBs, not from much else. A conflict like this goes beyond riflemen, down to each and every person, every Patriot.

--------------------
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Posts: 579 | From: ...Irrelevant.... | Registered: Dec 2006  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Vader
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SGTBloodLoss

The only way that an AK can be considered even a marginally acceptable rifle is if the Rifleman is capable of using it to consistently hit the enemy right in their blue helmet at a minimum of 100 yds out to at least 200 Yds, and in my personal opinion the minimum range should be no less then 200 yds and preferably 300 yds.

And as to the reasons we need to be able to hit a target no larger then a head wearing a blue helmet is first the fact that after the first shot fired by the Militia the enemy is going to ground and hiding behind any cover they can find.

I keep reading peoples responses to the statement that an AK is not accurate enough, and invariably that response is, I can hit "center of bad guy" at 200 yds and that is accurate enough for me.

Well that response proves that a lot of people do not even have the slightest idea of what a civil war against a modern military will be like.

For one thing with the body armor most modern militaries like European and United States are using, simply hitting “center of bad guy” will not work. To effectively take out a 21st century Soldier you have to be able to target and connect with the head or another vital, unprotected part of that Soldiers anatomy.

Another reason is that a Soldier is not a black on white Silhouette target standing upright in the middle of a shooting range that lets you fire multiple rounds at it without moving.

Real live Soldiers will not behave like a herd of Bison just standing there and letting themselves be killed. Real Soldier and in fact anyone who is not brain dead will jump for whatever cover that is close to them. And after that happens the biggest target you will have will be a persons head, and that most likely will only be, from the eyes on up.

And there is another very good reason to have an accurate rifle.

Distance is our friend the greater the distance we can engage the enemy from the greater our chance to live to fight another day.

CQB is only for the young or foolish or more likely Young and Foolish.

The enemy will in most cased be a lot younger and in better physical shape, and better trained then we are in CQB and their weapons will also outclass ours for that type of combat. Does anyone here believe that they with their semi-auto AK or AR are not going to be outgunned by an enemy with full auto M4s or AK74s.

The best way for Freedom Fighters to engage a regular military in combat is to engage them from as long a distance as we are capable of, and then bug out before the enemy can effectively return our fire and worse, call in Air Support or Artillery.

I have posted this because if anyone insists on directly engaging any military unit I want them to have the best chance of success and survival.

Now I will state that I believe that any direct engagement of the military is not what anyone in the Militia should even be thinking about.

I believe that if there is to be war then that war will need to be won by taking out the infrastructure that permits our system to function.

If no traffic moves on the highways especially trucks with their cargos of food and material necessary for factories to function, and electricity stops flowing especially to our major cities our sociality will effectively collapse, and if the cities water supply can also be stopped the collapse will happen a lot sooner.

If we can effectively shut down the economy or simply lay siege to our major cities, the leaders of our country will be forced to give in to our demands that our Constitutional Republic be fully restored. And the reason they will give in is that our cities will erupt with massive violence and the people, the political leaders of the cities and the corporate leaders and other elite will demand it.

And then it will be up to us whether we want to accept a negotiated peace arrangement where the elite get to keep their property and lives or to continue the war until we can march into our cities in total victory.

A friend and I started a site that we hope will be able to organize enough people willing to participate in a National Strike to at least have a negative effect on the entity known as the United States. If it is successful I believe depending on how successful it is that our Nation will be saved without resorting to violence.

A violent civil war will I believe destroy what is left of our Country and I am hoping that a National Strike this coming Labor Day has the best chance of succeeding without violence. And even if it fails everyone involved in this effort will at least know we did the best we could to avoid violence and will not meet our Lord in shame.

--------------------
VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
SBL
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Sniper, 2 things:

1) Most armed engagements are 100 yards or less, especially ambushes.

2) You're planning a strike (an agreement that nobody works) on Labor Day (a day designated for not working)?

That's like dieting while fasting, you're going to be doing that anyway. All I'm saying is that you may want to re-evaluate your strike day.

--------------------
On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.

Posts: 4285 | From: Central Virginia; VIM | Registered: Jan 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Spartan14
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I've said it once and I'll say it again

Hmm the name of the game will be Guerilla Warfare. We can't win against a logistically superior force using conventional warfare. But look at the Patriots of Vietnam and Iraq who have and still fight against invading US forces. Last I heard we lost the Vietnam Undeclared War. And I've heard tell of those Iraqis destroying M1 Abrams tanks using ingenuity and Impovised Explosive Devices. Essentially in an occupied area you will be operating as what some people would call a terorist except technically a terrorist targets civilians. The media would call anyone who resists any beurocracy any where in the globe a terrorists rather than a freedom fighter. SO with that said people might consider purchasing an extra rifle of carbine length that could be carried discreetly slung over your back that can be covered with a jacket as well as a few spare mags on your belt. Just think of how much you will stand out walking up to any enemy force if you are sporting full battle attire in an urban environment. It will be nice if you have a few options for modes to operate. Some missions be conducted in numbers equiped as conventional heavy infantry and others might call for an urban sniper with 1 man to watch your back. Versatilty is the name of the game. Choosing your fight and ground you fight on will be imperative pick your own personal Thermopylae. As the war progresses perhaps some captured material will change the dynamics of the combat. Maybe some captured antitank weapons will allow you to engage a broader variety of targets. But until we reach advanced stages I dont think that traditional toe to toe warfare will take place without massive casualties on the militia's side.

Also you aren't alone http://mp3.wtprn.com/Koernke08.html Listen to these broadcasts especially Wednesday which is weapons wednesday. This show is broadcast M-F 4-6 and 7-8 only hour 5-6 central is played on the radio the other two radios you can listen to online at http://www.live365.com/stations/edtheak47 also to meet some like minded Patriots check out the chat room during the show. http://www.libertytreeradio.4mg.com/ just click on the chat room link then type in a name and click the chat button. I met several fellow patriots in my area here. And some fun videos that let you know you aren't alone.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Libertytreeradio

--------------------
Live Free, Die Well
Semper Fidelis
Spartan14
Central Texas Defense
http://www.myspace.com/centraltexasdefense

Posts: 220 | From: Austin Texas | Registered: Nov 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
Spartan14
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How about ambushes for harassment purposes to help keep there morale down. As in a fireteam of riflemen at long range putting a volley fire into them then getting out of town. Paying special attention to target officers/Patrol leaders, medics, designated marksman, and commo guys at 500 yards or more whatever your abilities limit you to. Then get out of town before they can make there way to you or send in air or arty support. I am thinking the key to this tactic is not sniping for long periods of time and allowing them to call for some type of supporting arms as in the air and arty. But basically taking out key people that aren't easily replaced then leaving before they can react and get closure by killing you. Or perhaps having sniper fire coming from several directions, each shooter taking 1 shot then leaving. As they are attempting to react to each shooter he is on his way home while a new shooter from a completely different direction is taking 1 shot and so on. These are the kinda tactcs we used against the brits when we didn't have the numbers or equipment to meet them in conventional warfare. ie the road battles after lexington and concord where they got shot to hell from snipers all the way home. Each time they tried to engage the shooters ran like hell then caught up with them later on down the road to shoot again. I am thinking they may still have some value. with the exception of not allowing yourself to be targeted by their supporting arms. Any Opinions?

Semper Fidelis

[ 05-26-2008, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Spartan14 ]

--------------------
Live Free, Die Well
Semper Fidelis
Spartan14
Central Texas Defense
http://www.myspace.com/centraltexasdefense

Posts: 220 | From: Austin Texas | Registered: Nov 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
Lord Vader
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SGTBloodLoss

As to the Strike I didn’t mention the exact date.

The strike would be most likely the day after Labor Day or possibly the Friday before.

Now as to fighting:

Most armed engagements are 100 yards or less, especially ambushes.

That is not the correct way to think.

If the enemy gets to chose the time, place and conditions then we will be forced to fight by their rules.

And if the Militia are the ones to get ambushed then there is no option then to fight close up.

But if the Militia are the aggressors as they should be, and get to chose the time, place and conditions of the Battle, then there is no reason to let the enemy get that close.

That entire idea that engagements being are at 100yds or less is a Military thing and should not be taken as gospel by the Militia. In fact that 100yds thing is not how the Military used to think or how wars used to be fought.

It is a fact that both Strategy and Tactics have changed drastically due to advances in technology. With airpower ground troops went from being the main determining factor, to being a secondary factor. Airpower first hits the enemy and then the Infantry and Armor are brought in to close with the enemy and hopefully win. But even then Infantry has the support of Airpower.

I know you have a Military background and are returning to active duty status shortly.

Having Military combat experience can be useful to the Militiaman but it can also be a detriment, if you use tactics that although they are proper for the Army or Corps, are improper for the Militia.

I do not believe that even engaging the Military is even the proper thing to do in the first place, but if the Militia is determined to directly fight an Army then at least we can do our best to change the odds more to our favor.

And one way to do this is to Maximize our advantages while Minimizing as many of our enemies advantages as possible.

Fighting by their rules puts us at a major disadvantage.

· The enemy is in better physical shape for short range engagements
· The enemy is better trained for short range engagements
· The enemy is better equipped for short range engagements

And if Air Support is added to these advantages it all equals one big problem for the Militia.

Here is something to think of.

· Automatic weapons are most effective at close range, at long range the fire is dispersed.
· At long range it is harder for the enemy to identify and target their enemy.
· At long range a Rifleman with an accurate Rifle has an advantage over an enemy armed with a close range weapon.
· At long range a Skilled Rifleman with an accurate Rifle has an advantage over an enemy who is only skilled at Short Range.
· The greater the range, the greater the level of skill that is required to engage an enemy.
· At extremely close range even an enemy who is totally unskilled can easily kill an expert rifleman.

And if the Long Range Freedom Fighter adds a scope to his long range rifle his advantage over an enemy armed with an M4 or equivalent is even greater.

An unskilled member of a street gang with a low quality weapon at a range of 10 feet can easily kill the most skilled pistol fighter just by pure luck.

Now as to an ambush if an ambush is properly planned and there are enough Militia to have an numerical superiority over the enemy or the conditions of the ambush effectively give us an advantage and it can be accomplished in an extremely short time frame then it is a valid tactic, but if the enemy has time to call in Air Support then the Militia is toast.

And hopefully one last thought on the issue of fighting at close range.

In Navel Warfare whomever has the Gun with the Greatest Range has the advantage and will most likely be the winner.

And that is why the Redcoats pulled out of Boston. The Militia had Cannons on High Ground that could effectively fire on the British Ships in the harbor and the Ships Guns did not have the Range to effectively fire back.

We had the High Ground and the Ships were within range of our guns but we were out of range of their guns. Battle won by Patriots without having to actually sink any of their ships.

--------------------
VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)

Posts: 3823 | From: Trapped in Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
Patriot
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THERE WILL BE NO PEACE AGREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELL NO!!!
NO FRIGGIN PEACE AGREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Monica Lewinsky- amerikan patriot and militia poster girl. Only person in amerika that blew away a crooked president, never served a day in jail and lived to tell about it.

Posts: 2230 | From: Colorado | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
08-ARTY
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Bloodloss, what's the range on an M198 with Charge 8 Stick, Rocket Assisted Projectile?? Think counter battery radar...they were picking up AK shots and even vehicles during OIF 1.

--------------------
Liberty or Death!!

Posts: 382 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Feb 2007  | Report this post to a Moderator
SBL
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Yet they can't find Osama...

--------------------
On equipment: You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
On training: Our drills are bloodless battles so that our battles are bloody drills.
On tactics: Cheating just means you're serious about winning.

Posts: 4285 | From: Central Virginia; VIM | Registered: Jan 2008  | Report this post to a Moderator
Yankee Canuck
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okay, I swear I just read something about the MILITIA getting ambushed...

IF we are EVER in a position to be ambushed, we have LOST. If the Militia fights a war with a mentality that could even put us in a position to be ambushed, than we are F**ked.

--------------------
Jews of the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Check it out:
http://www.jpfo.org/

Posts: 579 | From: ...Irrelevant.... | Registered: Dec 2006  | Report this post to a Moderator
Patriot
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YC has it right!! As i said above,"There will be no peace agreement". That's what got us in the shape we are in now: a bunch of friggin treaties!! NO TREATIES!!!!!

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Monica Lewinsky- amerikan patriot and militia poster girl. Only person in amerika that blew away a crooked president, never served a day in jail and lived to tell about it.

Posts: 2230 | From: Colorado | Registered: Oct 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator
4130
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[ 09-07-2008, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: 4130 ]

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